1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Anatomy of Water Pump Failure

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Main Forum' started by jimolson, Apr 22, 2024.

  1. jimolson

    jimolson Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2006
    129
    47
    0
    Location:
    Indianapolis, USA
    Vehicle:
    2009 Prius
    Since my Bardstown, KY brother made a hobby of fixing up Gen 3 Priuses he's accumulated a bucket of dead water pumps (engine-water pump, not inverter pump) removed from vehicles showing P261 error codes.

    I analyzed a couple of these bad pumps and noticed a common failure mode. The impeller is a mostly plastic device filled with permanent magnets. The impeller rides on a fixed steel spindle without the benefit of bearings. The interface between the plastic impeller and the steel spindle is the bearing. Antifreeze serves as lubricant.

    After 100k+ miles the impeller side of the bearing begins to wear. Plastic shards accumulate in a necked-down portion of the spindle shaft. The run-out of the impeller increases to the point where it begins to rub the sidewalls of the cavity it sits in, loading down the motor. Eventually the engine computer detects the loading.

    There is a 1mm wide water channel molded into the impeller at the interface with the steel spindle. This water channel gets packed with plastic wear shards on failed units.

    FWIW, you can purchase for less than $25 a new impeller to replace worn ones. These impellers are sold in "water pump rebuild kits".

    However, using one of these rebuild kits requires that you pull the impeller from the pump fairly early in its wear cycle. By the time impeller wear begins to drag on the pump's RPM the plastic shards in the necked portion of the spindle prevent the impeller from being pulled from the pump.

    At the point where the impeller is heavily worn and "draggy" you can (usually) spin it with your fingers but not pull it from the pump. Plastic shards are acting as an impeller retaining clip on the shoulder of the necked spindle.

    Intuition tells you that corrosion on the steel spindle would play some role in the demise of the bearing surface but I see no corrosion in these failed units, only accumulated plastic shards.
    upload_2024-4-22_8-11-0.jpeg
     
  2. jimolson

    jimolson Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2006
    129
    47
    0
    Location:
    Indianapolis, USA
    Vehicle:
    2009 Prius
    BTW, it doesn't take much wear-caused run-out of the impeller to allow it to rub the sidewalls. Aisin has the air (water actually) gap between the impeller and stationary cavity sidewall down to a gnat's fingernail, probably 0.3mm or less.

    I'll bet the narrow gap around the spinning impeller is to encourage laminar flow of antifreeze in the gap to lessen the drag. And they're also trying to get the stator and rotor magnets as close to each other as they can to improve motor efficiency.
     
    Tim Jones likes this.
  3. Tombukt2

    Tombukt2 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2020
    8,269
    1,434
    0
    Location:
    Durham NC
    Vehicle:
    2009 Prius
    Model:
    Base
    You can also buy replacement impellers on eBay and Amazon this has been done a few times by a few different people here
     
  4. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2008
    23,400
    15,160
    0
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    Is there a particular source of these that you trust? I have not found them offered by Toyota.
     
    Tim Jones likes this.
  5. jimolson

    jimolson Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2006
    129
    47
    0
    Location:
    Indianapolis, USA
    Vehicle:
    2009 Prius
    There are several on Amazon in the under $30 category. He and I are separately about 5k miles deep into those with good luck so far.

    The Amazon vendor "Dasbecan" offers an impeller whose design differs somewhat from Aisin's but it seems to work.

    If you assume that Aisin's huge engineering staff and well-equipped labs generated the best impeller design with the highest efficiency and reliability, any knock-off is likely to be worse. But I suspect that there's huge safety margin in the overall pump design that allows lesser but non-infringing impeller designs to do the job.

    The riskiest park of any knock off design would seem to be the choice of molding resin. The steel/plastic interface of the water bearing is the Achilles heel, together with the extremely tight tolerances at the perimeter of the magnet housing.

    I have no mech training so if I were an enterprising Asian parts manufacturer tinkering with Aisin's design I might be tempted to widen the gap between the magnet housing and the cavity it sits in to permit a bit of wobble. Aisin's design tolerates near-zero run out at the magnet's perimeter--maybe 0.2mm.

    But I suspect widening that gap increases drag on the motor if it encourages vortices to form in the water.
     
  6. Tombukt2

    Tombukt2 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2020
    8,269
    1,434
    0
    Location:
    Durham NC
    Vehicle:
    2009 Prius
    Model:
    Base
    I wouldn't think Toyota USA would be interested in selling a water pump impeller for the other 75 or $80 you can just buy the whole menagerie and that's how we do business here. Not sure about the widening of the gaps and messing with the specifications and all this and that but I'm sure that's open to the company owners interpretation of all of that and hence why there are so many problems in the aftermarket everybody has an idea some of those ideas should stay just that in their heads probably.
     
    Tim Jones likes this.
  7. jimolson

    jimolson Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2006
    129
    47
    0
    Location:
    Indianapolis, USA
    Vehicle:
    2009 Prius
    Tombutkt2, I spent most of my career gnawing on the perimeter of markets dominated by large established companies. Everybody gotta eat. You use your cleverness to make a cheaper product that gets the customer's job done.

    I can easily afford a new $200 Aisin water pump but I get a hobbyist's thrill out of driving a vehicle held together (barely) with aftermarket parts made by little shops around the world.

    I smile and wave (with one finger) every time I pass the Indianapolis dealership where I bought my last new Prius, my wallet still firmly in my jeans pocket. It's a fun game to see how long I can stay away and assist others in doing the same.
     
    Tande likes this.
  8. Tombukt2

    Tombukt2 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2020
    8,269
    1,434
    0
    Location:
    Durham NC
    Vehicle:
    2009 Prius
    Model:
    Base
    Yeah I do all that nonsense I've never had to walk into a dealer and buy a car in my life and never will but that's another whole pile of poop I don't buy into any of this nonsense I was just making a comment on why Toyota doesn't sell an impeller or Toyota USA doesn't sell an impeller because that's not how we do it in the USA or they do it or whatever more than likely I don't even have the correct water pump on my Prius and the inverter pump is definitely not correct but it all works and wonderfully and cost me nothing
     
    Tim Jones likes this.
  9. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    54,842
    38,327
    80
    Location:
    Greater Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    Toyota should maybe add water pump replacement interval to their maintenance schedule. Or redesign it. If they were responsible, not just concerned about bottom line, or losing face.

    I’m keeping that 100k milestone in mind. (y)
     
    Tim Jones likes this.
  10. Tombukt2

    Tombukt2 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2020
    8,269
    1,434
    0
    Location:
    Durham NC
    Vehicle:
    2009 Prius
    Model:
    Base
    The Austrian company that manufactures engines for some of my adult scooters 16-in wheeled motorcycle looking things that company's name is rotax which used to be part of bombardier they have been round and round with electric water pumps various impeller designs and shaft driven pumps driven by the engine and at the end of the day they stayed with a shaft driven pump driven by the engine and a modern impeller made out of a plastic that can take up to 300 some odd degrees over the electric kind of interesting kind of like the Gen 2's pulied water pump versus the Gen 3's electric sort of
     
    Tim Jones likes this.
  11. Tim Jones

    Tim Jones Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    1,706
    553
    3
    Location:
    SE Texas
    Vehicle:
    2011 Nissan LEAF
    Model:
    ----USA----
    If you have over 150,000 miles get the water pump changed immediately.
    Mine went out at 167,000
    This is important cause if it fails almost guaranteed Head Gasket Failure.