Disappointed in Prius ('08) waiting for '10

[Sheepdog]

"Conclusion is also that instead of waging war for oil in Iraq and spending billion per day doing so Bush could make grants or incentives to domestic car industry and demand practical EV solutions immediately (how about GM Volt?). Mass replacement of the regular cars with hybrids like Prius would slash oil dependency by 30-40% or more"

You have silly opinions for a socialist. And if you don't know by now what America is doing for your continued health and safety in the world I hope you enjoy your dream world. People like you make me wish we could pick and chose who our friends are.

You must be French.

[kevinwhite]

Originally Posted by SuperDave

I am going to disagree a little with both Kevin's. I Truly believe that there are many situations that if I had even a little more battery I could do far better on my mileage. In my day to day driving, I have more than enough opportunities to keep the battery charged and find myself wanting more battery at times.

If the battery is taking a loan from future fuel consumption, why are we hauling around the added weight of the battery and all of the electronics and paying the added price?

Would the Prius without the electrics and lighter weight get as good or better mileage? I don't think so, not even close. So somewhere in the mix we are getting more from the electric than we are "putting in".

For long distance steady speeds on level roads (e.g freeways in Florida) the battery is if little value, where there are many changes of engine load (e.g. city driving, hills etc) it is very valuable.

It is a compromise - for some scenarios having a larger battery would be better - especially if it could have a higher energy to weight ratio and didn't cost any more than the existing one. However it does subtract from payload, costs money and uses energy to carry it around. Toyota decided on a particular compromise and while it is good it won't match all uses of the vehicle, I also would like it larger

kevin

[hiremichaelreid]

Originally Posted by Zack

I believe that Toyota will come through in 2010 and VW maybe year earlier with 55-60 MPG performance for every average driver. I am buying at that moment, replace once for ever big engine cars that we have now.

From a Canadian perspective:

I took delivery of my new 2008 "Canadian Base" on Thursday. (It like a US touring package 2 with some package 3 and 4 features.)

I checked the oil and it's near the top. I haven't lowered it or changed to synthetic yet. I checked the tire pressures cold and they are FL: 38 PSI, FR: 37.5 PSI, RL: 35.5 PSI, RR: 36 PSI. I left the pressure at these delivery values. Car had 6 km (4 miles) at delivery and showed 27.1L/100km (about 9 US MPG). Guess they don't get good mileage the first 4 miles

I took Prius for 80 km (50 mile) drive at various speeds. I think I got between 5 and 6 L/100km ( about 39 US MPG).

On my Friday 10:00 AM 31km (20 mile) commute (max 60-70 kmh or 40 MPH) I got 4.5L/100km according to MFD, or about 62 Canadian MPG or 52 US MPG. Canadian Roll-Call

On Friday I drove about 470 km (300 miles) to Toronto from Gatineau/Ottawa between 7:00 pm and 2:00 AM. At least half the trip was in rain, at times with lightning. I'm not sure about elevation changes, but there are many reasonable sized hills on this route. I set the cruise control for 120 kmh (75 MPH). I got 5.8L/100km (US 40 MPG).

I drove back this afternoon. Outside temps ranged from 16-18 celsius (61-65 farenheit). YYZ and Gatineau airports seem to indicate I have a tail wind right behind me of average range of 8-28 KMH (5-17 MPH).
But I still got the same 40 US MPG at 120 KMH.

At 125 KMH I got 6.2 L/100 KM
At 120 KHM I got 5.8 L/100 KM (about 75 MPH and 40 US MPG)
At 110 KMH I got 4.7 L/100 KM (about 69 MPH and 50 US MPG)
At 100 KMH I got 4.6 L/100 KM (about 62 MPH and 51 US MPG)
At 95 KMH I got 4.2 L/100 KM

For cruise controlled highway driving there seems to be a big jump in fuel consumption from 110-120 KMH (69-75 MPH). Some is aerodynamic forces acting as the cube of velocity, but I think some is due to less efficiency in the HSD at higher highway speeds.

I tried pulse and glide from 110-90 KMH but I couldn't improve on the Cruise set to 100 KMH.

I'm glad I got my 2008 before they are gone. Federal $2k rebate applies to 2008 model year only, but continues into Spring of 2009. Think you'll be able to find a 2008 Prius in early 2009 ? Only if Toyota pulls a model year trick for Canadian rebate elegibility. Perhaps the lots will finally clear of all the rusting 2008 Civic Hybrids in spring of 2009.

And yes, I had to fill up once since I got the Prius 1200 kilometers or 800 miles ago. It took 27.1 litres in Bowmanville at about $1.29 per litre or about $5.00 per gallon.

My wife and the 2 kids and I love the Prius so far. We are very impressed. Everyone has their own criteria and I think you'll find very few Prius "bigots" on this board; mostly friendly, reasonable zealots who also own and like other cars for different reasons.

[Zack]

Originally Posted by hiremichaelreid

From a Canadian perspective:

I took delivery of my new 2008 "Canadian Base" on Thursday. (It like a US touring package 2 with some package 3 and 4 features.) ...

How much was total cost of the car in the end of the day? I am wondering does it worth to bring it from USA?

I consider 4 - 4.5 l/100km consumption really good. Some people claim even lower like 3.8 but I didn't achieve anything even close to above in regular driving.

[orenf]

Originally Posted by Zack

How much was total cost of the car in the end of the day? I am wondering does it worth to bring it from USA?

Zack,

In 2007 it made a lot of sense to import a Prius from the US. I saved about $10,000. You still get provincial (PST) rebate, but not the federal rebate. It was well worth it.

For 2008 that may (or may not) still be the case - Canadian Prius pricing went down, US pricing is slightly up (given demand). But the exchange rate is even better than what it was when I bought mine (back then it was $1USD = $1.06CAD).

When you import you need to pay 6.1% duty (Prius is made in Japan).

The biggest challenge is finding a Toyota dealer in the US willing to sell you a car (formally, they are not allowed to do so). That may be even more difficult these days, since they can hardly meet their domestic demand.

Check out my blog (The Mobile Net - From Useless to Useful) for a detailed description of the import process - go back a few posts, as I have several Prius/import posts there, and have helped others through the process.

[jreed]

I too was disappointed in the winter of 2004 when I test drove a new Prius, for similar reasons. Now, four years later I own a used one (2006 model) because the situation has changed: gas prices are higher and my commute is much longer. In early 2008, when I re-ran the numbers using a projected $4/gallon gas price, it worked out to be ~$300/year cheaper to drive a used Prius than three or four other kinds of used cars.

[hobbit]

This thread is gettin' pretty long already, but here's an immediate
question: do those European 1.1 liter and the like cars deliver
the "performance" that you [zack] expect and desire? I suspect
that the answer is no, not really -- they in fact exemplify some
of the principles one would use to get higher MPG in a Prius:
treat the car like the large heavy object it is, think about
the physics of the situation and the amount of energy it really
takes to get something like that moving and then to stop it
again, and now you begin to see the principles of hypermiling.
When one is willing to create a set of running conditions that
optimizes efficiency and then *wait* a little longer for the
results, the fuel economy gains are huge. And I'm not talking
crawling in the right lane or egg-footing the go-pedal, either,
just not driving like you believe you can zip instantaneously
from here to the next stop like so many folks on the roads seem
to want. Really, it's okay to forget you can do 0-60 in ten
and let it happen over more like 20 or 25, because it's not
only more efficient but it also gives you much more time to
react should something go awry in the process.
.
This isn't a lecture, just a little perspective on your "how do
people do that" question. A car with a little 1-liter engine
is likely to sort of force the point, and many Europeans are
perfectly happy with that because they all *do* get where they
need to go and not with any particular notable delay.
.
This also isn't a "go buy a prius now" plug, either! If you
don't like it you don't like it, but you're probably beginning
to see that along with the car comes a strong and enthusiastic
community.
.
_H*

[nyty-nyt]

I think that people transitioning to the Prius need to remember that the old paradigm of acceleration-deceleration wastes gas no matter what you are driving. By watching 2 or 3 lights ahead, by taking a route that minimizes stop signs and lights, by avoiding speeds above highway limits, you save gas in any vehicle with a gentle throttle foot. There are many Prius owners out there who fail to achieve the potential of the car by driving the old way, and by driving only five minutes at a time, thereby continuing to drive a car with only an ICE propelling it...using less gas than their other car, but using fuel nonetheless.
For those of us who have changed our habits, the rewards just get better as fuel costs rise. It's kinda fun too.
4.0 liters per 100k and more relaxed behind the wheel than ever before.

[Zack]

Originally Posted by jreed

I too was disappointed in the winter of 2004 when I test drove a new Prius, for similar reasons. Now, four years later I own a used one (2006 model) because the situation has changed: gas prices are higher and my commute is much longer. In early 2008, when I re-ran the numbers using a projected $4/gallon gas price, it worked out to be ~$300/year cheaper to drive a used Prius than three or four other kinds of used cars.

What kind of MPG you get now after almost 4 years of driving one?

[Zack]

Originally Posted by hobbit

This thread is gettin' pretty long already, but here's an immediate
question: do those European 1.1 liter and the like cars deliver
the "performance" that you [zack] expect and desire? I suspect
that the answer is no, not really -- they in fact exemplify some
of the principles one would use to get higher MPG in a Prius: ... more
.
_H*

hobbit thank you for input. Trust me I am aware that gasoline is 1.29 $/liter (almost 5 $/gal) here and that it's getting worse by the day. I believe that days of big cars (engines) is gone forever.
If Prius can achieve regular performance of kind some of the members report that would be great.