Prius goes off the deep end...

nannyandnutro · 09-11-2004, 06:56 PM

I posted this a couple of other places. I need some input on what I should do/say to handle this situation. Here goes:

Last night, driving home I had one solid bar left on the gas gauge. As I traveled up an incline, the bar began flashing and the "add fuel" message popped up. Fine, but things went very bad from there.

I was a mile or so away from home but pass four gas stations on the way. Before I could even contemplate filling up, the hybrid warning light came on followed by every other light on the dash. I then lost considerable power and watched as the speedometer sort of counted down. I couldn't even make it to a part of the road with a shoulder before the car simply "seized" and wouldn't go further.

This all happened over a few hundred feet. Sitting in the middle of the road just past a blind curve at 10 p.m. was rather daunting, but fortunately roadside assistance had a truck there within minutes. At this point, I figured something wacky had gone wrong with the computer and Toyota could just reset it and all would be well.

The tow operator couldn't get the car into neutral. We looked everything up in my manual just to be sure, but no such luck. He put it on dollies and towed it away. First thing this morning, I called the service dept. and was told that a) it probably wouldn't be fixed under warranty and

they had no Prius tech until Monday so they knew nothing other than that I'd been negligent and let it run out of gas.
:cussing:
He even tried to argue that since they were unable to determine if my issue could be repaired under warranty that I was ineligible for a loaner car. Luckily, I contacted my salesperson who slipped me a Corolla (a surprisingly nice little car, by the way) while they sort this out.

I guess it comes down to this: we know for a fact that there is gas in the car. Upon lifting it onto the truck bed, the second tow operator said he could hear it in there. Even if the gas tank were empty, I had no previous indication of such, so how could that be construed as my fault? The behavior of the car in general during all this tells me there's something else going on. I could tell from my conversation with the service advisor that they want to wriggle out of this if possible. The man even started quoting me diagnostic fees I would be responsible for. There was never an apology or sympathy, just blame and uncertainty. Has this happened to anyone else and how were you treated? What was the outcome? I have noticed at oil changes that most of their employees don't even know how to drive the car into the service area, so there isn't much confidence there. I guess any info you all can throw my way is appreciated. I'll be biting my nails all weekend (and driving the bejesus out of this pretty new Corolla).

jamarimutt · 09-11-2004, 07:08 PM

If there's gas in that tank it should not be your fault that the car "ran out of gas" because it did not. Something else is at fault.

However, if there's no gas in the tank you may be in trouble. The Prius gas gauge is notoriously unreliable, to the point that Toyota is authorizing a rather complex fix for owners who formally complain about this (this may be the moment to do that). For now on keep track of your mileage to be sure that this does not happen again. My car went once from two bars all the way to one blinking bar.

john1701a · 09-11-2004, 07:31 PM

There is always a little gas left in a tank, even when you think it is bone dry... which leads to a trick I learned back in the 80's. Violently sway the car back & front to slosh that gas out. You can squeeze out enough to get yourself out of harm's way.

Of course, I have no idea if that would ever work in a Prius since it has a bladder... and I haven't ever tried... since I use mileage as my secondary gauge. That "9 gallon" rule will keep you out of trouble... which leads to the TSB available. If you actually ran out of gas without exceeding that threshold, have that work done. It will fix gauge accuracy.

nannyandnutro · 09-11-2004, 08:06 PM

I checked and my VIN doesn't fall under the fuel gauge TSB. I've only had the car since April and it was manufactured in March. That morning, I put around 3 gallons in (I'd forgotten my check card) and according to my MPG I'd have gotten just over 150 miles out of that. According to the odometer, I was a hair over 100 when this incident happened. Not that I was relying on that, but the bottom line is that my gauge was not blinking at all, and in an instant it started blinking and the car was dead within a minute. That's my issue. And the sloshing trick? You brought back memories of my Eurovan before I fixed the broken gas gauge. I was relying on quick calculations but was unaware that my husband had taken it out earlier that day. It began to sputter during my commute, we pulled that same trick and got to a gas station just barely. Ahhh, fun stuff. This situation, not so fun. BTW, if it helps mine has just over 13k.

**efusco** · 09-11-2004, 08:29 PM

What did you do to try to restart the car, and what happened when you did? Getting the car into neutral requires a "READY" state as shifting is purely electronic. Did the tow guy have any experience at all with a Prius?

Several of us have experienced a similar situation of sudden loss of power unexpectedly. In most of those situations pulling over, shutting all the way down briefly, then restarting results in only the "Problem Triangle" being left and otherwise normal operation. 3 more cycles (or maybe just 2 additional) of shutting down and restarting usually clear that triangle.

Did you try restarting at all? What were you doing to try to get the car in neutral and what condition was it in (i.e. Ready mode but no power, not in Ready mode, Ready mode but you didn't try to drive, etc.)

Ok, the $100 diagnostic fee. No way should you pay it... unless you ran the car out of gas, which they should be able to prove...the car won't start, gauge shows empty, gas added, car starts fine. But pulling codes should not be a charge. And even if no codes are found that doesn't mean it wasn't the car's fault. When I had my "limp home mode" episode I took the car in within a few hundred miles and there were no problem codes at all found...but I can assure you the incident occured. A brief search at this site should find you several threads showing similar issues with no codes...print them out and take them to the service mgr. with you if they try to charge you.

Ok, you want my honest opinion???
1)Either you had the same "limp home" condition I describe above and it should be completely covered by warranty.

or

2) You screwed up and didn't have enough gas...probably a small miscalculation or something. I don't know if there might be a problem with inaccuracy of the fuel guage when it the tank isn't filled full when refueling and thus the very late "Add Fuel" indicator. That's pure conjecture.

I hope, for your sake, it's the former and you prevail and have the problem diagnosed and treated for free.

nannyandnutro · 09-11-2004, 09:05 PM

We tried restarting it several times...the ICE would kick in for a brief second, the dash would light up again, and the car would be inoperable. We never could get it into a "ready" position. Even in worse case scenario (out of gas) why would I be responsible for the gauge reading incorrectly? By that logic, on my Camry, when the orange light first comes on or the needle gets close to "E" I should stop the car immediately? I don't think that makes sense. Moreover, if it WAS out of gas (and I am 100 percent sure there is gas in that tank) why would the car do all of the strange things it did? I mean, even the truck driver said it looked possessed. At one point, when we were desperately trying to get it into neutral, the fuel gauge came on and showed full for a minute and then the whole thing began to flash (still showing full) I just want everyone to understand (especially Toyota) that I did not intend to drive it any further than a quarter mile to the gas station, but the car didn't even give me that chance. In that case, even if you figure only a 1 gallon fuel reserve and lowest possible MPG a quarter mile, or in my case, a few hundred feet-isn't too much to ask, is it?

**efusco** · 09-11-2004, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nannyandnutro
We tried restarting it several times...the ICE would kick in for a brief second, the dash would light up again, and the car would be inoperable. We never could get it into a \"ready\" position. Even in worse case scenario (out of gas) why would I be responsible for the gauge reading incorrectly? By that logic, on my Camry, when the orange light first comes on or the needle gets close to \"E\" I should stop the car immediately? I don't think that makes sense.

I guess that's a reasonable question to ask, and I agree that the guage should be fairly accurate and predictible. But, ultimately, it's the driver's fault if the car runs out of gas. Sounds like you were pushing your luck with that 3 gallons of gas instead of a full fill up.

Quote:

Moreover, if it WAS out of gas (and I am 100 percent sure there is gas in that tank) why would the car do all of the strange things it did? I mean, even the truck driver said it looked possessed.

You haven't described the "strange things it did" or why the tow guy thought it seemed "possessed". Again, if that guy knows nothing about the Prius just about anything it does is going to seem abnormal to him. His statement, without further perspective (tows Prii on a weekly basis and has a solid understanding of the electronics of the Prius and how the electronic control of the 'gears' work, etc), is essentially meaningless.

I'd like to hear more about the 'strange things it did' as that may help answer your questions.

Quote:

At one point, when we were desperately trying to get it into neutral, the fuel gauge came on and showed full for a minute and then the whole thing began to flash (still showing full) I just want everyone to understand (especially Toyota) that I did not intend to drive it any further than a quarter mile to the gas station, but the car didn't even give me that chance. In that case, even if you figure only a 1 gallon fuel reserve and lowest possible MPG a quarter mile, or in my case, a few hundred feet-isn't too much to ask, is it?

Again, given the scenario you should certainly have had much more reserve. But, as stated above, 'gas in the tank' does not equate to usable fuel in the tank. There will always be some reserve.

If you have a chance, and the service dept. is still convinced your car died due to low fuel, try to be there when they fill it up....and make sure they fill it full and see how much fuel it takes...if it takes ~11 gallons then it was out of gas and your 'case' will revolve around convincing them that it's the guage's fault. If it takes less than that (like 9 gallons), then you have a good case to say that there was usable fuel in the tank and that something else caused the problem.

nannyandnutro · 09-11-2004, 11:24 PM

So far as the strange things, one that stands out was this: I had my hazard lights on as well as the headlights just for visibility, but after a few minutes the right headlight wasn't on and the right hazard blinker both inside and out wasn't on either. The left counterpart of all these worked fine. Did my car have a stroke?!

Also, when I tried to "reboot" the car, it would come on like normal, no warning lights, the ICE kicked in and started charging the battery according to the energy screen and then a second later it was gone again.

The tow guy actually works for another local Toyota/Ford dealership and has towed several Prii as well as Insights. The very idea of "several" scares me because I've seen less than ten individual ones in the area since they came out. He said he's seen them do nutty things at times. He also told me that in the last two weeks they had taken 16 Ford cars off of the flatbed, brand new from production, with serious engine problems.

We still don't see eye to eye on the fuel part. If I'd driven while the gauge was blinking even a mile or so, then I could accept the blame and move on. This isn't what happened. I should not have to calculate my gas consumption/refueling down to the last mile. This is why we have gas gauges, isn't it? I owned a cheap rusty car with that problem, not an expensive new one.

It seems to me that none of these things should have happened as a result of running out of gas anyway. It looks as if some computer system has failed or become corrupted somehow. I have a feeling that regardless Toyota and I will be going around in circles Monday if the difficulty of getting a loaner car is any indication. I'll just make sure I bring the toddler with me to the dealership BEFORE his nap. :wink:

richard schumacher · 09-12-2004, 12:16 AM

Moral: don't screw around when you get to one bar. Fill the gas tank.

**efusco** · 09-12-2004, 12:35 AM

From the description you've given I don't think the fuel is an issue at all...something's fried. Almost makes me think the add fuel warning you got had nothing to do with it at all, just happened to be the first 'symptom' of the disease.

I think you're not understanding me on the running out of gas thing, I'm not trying to blame you and I agree that the car should accurately reflect the amount of fuel...but say something like that as a pilot and you'll get nowhere...it's the pilots job to know how much fuel is used and how much is in the tank. If a plane runs out of gas it goes down as pilot error...not a bad fuel guage error. But again, I think Toyota should've done a better job with a more accurate guage and I'm thankful that mine is getting 'fixed' soon.

09-11-2004, 06:56 PM	#1
nannyandnutro Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Minis Tirith, TN Posts: 71 My Car: Package: Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	Prius goes off the deep end... I posted this a couple of other places. I need some input on what I should do/say to handle this situation. Here goes: Last night, driving home I had one solid bar left on the gas gauge. As I traveled up an incline, the bar began flashing and the "add fuel" message popped up. Fine, but things went very bad from there. I was a mile or so away from home but pass four gas stations on the way. Before I could even contemplate filling up, the hybrid warning light came on followed by every other light on the dash. I then lost considerable power and watched as the speedometer sort of counted down. I couldn't even make it to a part of the road with a shoulder before the car simply "seized" and wouldn't go further. This all happened over a few hundred feet. Sitting in the middle of the road just past a blind curve at 10 p.m. was rather daunting, but fortunately roadside assistance had a truck there within minutes. At this point, I figured something wacky had gone wrong with the computer and Toyota could just reset it and all would be well. The tow operator couldn't get the car into neutral. We looked everything up in my manual just to be sure, but no such luck. He put it on dollies and towed it away. First thing this morning, I called the service dept. and was told that a) it probably wouldn't be fixed under warranty and they had no Prius tech until Monday so they knew nothing other than that I'd been negligent and let it run out of gas. :cussing: He even tried to argue that since they were unable to determine if my issue could be repaired under warranty that I was ineligible for a loaner car. Luckily, I contacted my salesperson who slipped me a Corolla (a surprisingly nice little car, by the way) while they sort this out. I guess it comes down to this: we know for a fact that there is gas in the car. Upon lifting it onto the truck bed, the second tow operator said he could hear it in there. Even if the gas tank were empty, I had no previous indication of such, so how could that be construed as my fault? The behavior of the car in general during all this tells me there's something else going on. I could tell from my conversation with the service advisor that they want to wriggle out of this if possible. The man even started quoting me diagnostic fees I would be responsible for. There was never an apology or sympathy, just blame and uncertainty. Has this happened to anyone else and how were you treated? What was the outcome? I have noticed at oil changes that most of their employees don't even know how to drive the car into the service area, so there isn't much confidence there. I guess any info you all can throw my way is appreciated. I'll be biting my nails all weekend (and driving the bejesus out of this pretty new Corolla).

09-11-2004, 07:31 PM	#3
john1701a Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,715 My Car: 2004 Prius Package: Pioneer #3 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 3	There is always a little gas left in a tank, even when you think it is bone dry... which leads to a trick I learned back in the 80's. Violently sway the car back & front to slosh that gas out. You can squeeze out enough to get yourself out of harm's way. Of course, I have no idea if that would ever work in a Prius since it has a bladder... and I haven't ever tried... since I use mileage as my secondary gauge. That "9 gallon" rule will keep you out of trouble... which leads to the TSB available. If you actually ran out of gas without exceeding that threshold, have that work done. It will fix gauge accuracy. __________________ JOHN http://john1701a.com 47.9 MPG average @ 108,544 miles

09-11-2004, 08:29 PM	#5
efusco Troll Slayer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Nixa, MO Posts: 14,225 My Car: 2004 Prius Package: #9 Nominated 1 Time in 1 Post TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 24	What did you do to try to restart the car, and what happened when you did? Getting the car into neutral requires a "READY" state as shifting is purely electronic. Did the tow guy have any experience at all with a Prius? Several of us have experienced a similar situation of sudden loss of power unexpectedly. In most of those situations pulling over, shutting all the way down briefly, then restarting results in only the "Problem Triangle" being left and otherwise normal operation. 3 more cycles (or maybe just 2 additional) of shutting down and restarting usually clear that triangle. Did you try restarting at all? What were you doing to try to get the car in neutral and what condition was it in (i.e. Ready mode but no power, not in Ready mode, Ready mode but you didn't try to drive, etc.) Ok, the $100 diagnostic fee. No way should you pay it... unless you ran the car out of gas, which they should be able to prove...the car won't start, gauge shows empty, gas added, car starts fine. But pulling codes should not be a charge. And even if no codes are found that doesn't mean it wasn't the car's fault. When I had my "limp home mode" episode I took the car in within a few hundred miles and there were no problem codes at all found...but I can assure you the incident occured. A brief search at this site should find you several threads showing similar issues with no codes...print them out and take them to the service mgr. with you if they try to charge you. Ok, you want my honest opinion??? 1)Either you had the same "limp home" condition I describe above and it should be completely covered by warranty. or 2) You screwed up and didn't have enough gas...probably a small miscalculation or something. I don't know if there might be a problem with inaccuracy of the fuel guage when it the tank isn't filled full when refueling and thus the very late "Add Fuel" indicator. That's pure conjecture. I hope, for your sake, it's the former and you prevail and have the problem diagnosed and treated for free. __________________ Evan E. Fusco, MD Seaside 04BC9/OEM EVb/NAV & auto-BT/XM Radio, CAN-View, Shark Fin, BT Stiff. Plate, Skid Plate & Strut Support

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09-11-2004, 07:08 PM	#2
jamarimutt Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 972 My Car: Package: Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	If there's gas in that tank it should not be your fault that the car "ran out of gas" because it did not. Something else is at fault. However, if there's no gas in the tank you may be in trouble. The Prius gas gauge is notoriously unreliable, to the point that Toyota is authorizing a rather complex fix for owners who formally complain about this (this may be the moment to do that). For now on keep track of your mileage to be sure that this does not happen again. My car went once from two bars all the way to one blinking bar.

09-11-2004, 08:06 PM	#4
nannyandnutro Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Minis Tirith, TN Posts: 71 My Car: Package: Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	I checked and my VIN doesn't fall under the fuel gauge TSB. I've only had the car since April and it was manufactured in March. That morning, I put around 3 gallons in (I'd forgotten my check card) and according to my MPG I'd have gotten just over 150 miles out of that. According to the odometer, I was a hair over 100 when this incident happened. Not that I was relying on that, but the bottom line is that my gauge was not blinking at all, and in an instant it started blinking and the car was dead within a minute. That's my issue. And the sloshing trick? You brought back memories of my Eurovan before I fixed the broken gas gauge. I was relying on quick calculations but was unaware that my husband had taken it out earlier that day. It began to sputter during my commute, we pulled that same trick and got to a gas station just barely. Ahhh, fun stuff. This situation, not so fun. BTW, if it helps mine has just over 13k.

09-11-2004, 09:05 PM	#6
nannyandnutro Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Minis Tirith, TN Posts: 71 My Car: Package: Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	We tried restarting it several times...the ICE would kick in for a brief second, the dash would light up again, and the car would be inoperable. We never could get it into a "ready" position. Even in worse case scenario (out of gas) why would I be responsible for the gauge reading incorrectly? By that logic, on my Camry, when the orange light first comes on or the needle gets close to "E" I should stop the car immediately? I don't think that makes sense. Moreover, if it WAS out of gas (and I am 100 percent sure there is gas in that tank) why would the car do all of the strange things it did? I mean, even the truck driver said it looked possessed. At one point, when we were desperately trying to get it into neutral, the fuel gauge came on and showed full for a minute and then the whole thing began to flash (still showing full) I just want everyone to understand (especially Toyota) that I did not intend to drive it any further than a quarter mile to the gas station, but the car didn't even give me that chance. In that case, even if you figure only a 1 gallon fuel reserve and lowest possible MPG a quarter mile, or in my case, a few hundred feet-isn't too much to ask, is it?

09-11-2004, 11:24 PM	#8
nannyandnutro Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Minis Tirith, TN Posts: 71 My Car: Package: Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	So far as the strange things, one that stands out was this: I had my hazard lights on as well as the headlights just for visibility, but after a few minutes the right headlight wasn't on and the right hazard blinker both inside and out wasn't on either. The left counterpart of all these worked fine. Did my car have a stroke?! Also, when I tried to "reboot" the car, it would come on like normal, no warning lights, the ICE kicked in and started charging the battery according to the energy screen and then a second later it was gone again. The tow guy actually works for another local Toyota/Ford dealership and has towed several Prii as well as Insights. The very idea of "several" scares me because I've seen less than ten individual ones in the area since they came out. He said he's seen them do nutty things at times. He also told me that in the last two weeks they had taken 16 Ford cars off of the flatbed, brand new from production, with serious engine problems. We still don't see eye to eye on the fuel part. If I'd driven while the gauge was blinking even a mile or so, then I could accept the blame and move on. This isn't what happened. I should not have to calculate my gas consumption/refueling down to the last mile. This is why we have gas gauges, isn't it? I owned a cheap rusty car with that problem, not an expensive new one. It seems to me that none of these things should have happened as a result of running out of gas anyway. It looks as if some computer system has failed or become corrupted somehow. I have a feeling that regardless Toyota and I will be going around in circles Monday if the difficulty of getting a loaner car is any indication. I'll just make sure I bring the toddler with me to the dealership BEFORE his nap. :wink:

09-12-2004, 12:16 AM	#9
richard schumacher nacreous lacquer Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4,126 My Car: 2004 Prius Package: #6 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	Moral: don't screw around when you get to one bar. Fill the gas tank.

09-12-2004, 12:35 AM	#10
efusco Troll Slayer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Nixa, MO Posts: 14,225 My Car: 2004 Prius Package: #9 Nominated 1 Time in 1 Post TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 24	From the description you've given I don't think the fuel is an issue at all...something's fried. Almost makes me think the add fuel warning you got had nothing to do with it at all, just happened to be the first 'symptom' of the disease. I think you're not understanding me on the running out of gas thing, I'm not trying to blame you and I agree that the car should accurately reflect the amount of fuel...but say something like that as a pilot and you'll get nowhere...it's the pilots job to know how much fuel is used and how much is in the tank. If a plane runs out of gas it goes down as pilot error...not a bad fuel guage error. But again, I think Toyota should've done a better job with a more accurate guage and I'm thankful that mine is getting 'fixed' soon.