Should I be annoyed at the dealer?

[rhbirkhahn]

I've got a general question for the collected group here. My 2004 Prius started making a rumbling noise that was low frequency and varied with speed at 84,000 miles, and seemed to be coming from the right front. I have some experience with cars, so I rotated the tires, cleaned and rebuilt the front brakes with Toyota pads, turned the rotors and checked the runout and re-assembled the vehicle. The tires were goodyear tripletread with around 38,000 miles on them, had plenty of tread, and showed a little excessive wear at the outside shoulders, but nothing overly dramatic.

The noise if anything got a little louder. So I jacked up the car again and isolated the right front axle. With the engine running, I couldn't really tell that the bearing was bad on either front axle. So I removed the right front steering knuckle and isolated the wheel bearing, which seemed to spin freely and without grinding. So I took the right front half axle off and inspected and repacked the CV joints and reassembled the vehicle.

The noise was the same. So, worried that it was coming from the transmission and not the axle I took the vehicle to my dealer. I explained the problem and everything I had done to diagnose it myself. The service advisor had me explain all of this to the senior Prius tech who has worked on my car before.

After having it the rest of the day, the service advisor called me back and told me that the right front wheel bearing was "intermittently freezing" and possibly the right half axle was bad as well but they wouldn't be able to tell until it was off the vehicle. They wanted $750 plus tax for the repair. $160 for the bearing assembly, 4.5 hours of labor @ $98/hr, and $140 for the front end alignment. I'm not a brain surgeon, but it only took me an hour and half to get down to the bearing with a jack and wrench on my driveway, and when I told them this, the service advisor said that she could discount the charge to $650, but that the computer estimator gave it a minimum of 4 hours for the repair. I declined and paid the $130 diagnostic fee and picked up the car. It took me less than 2 hours that evening to replace the right front wheel bearing assembly for $110 in my driveway. (I followed the procedure from the TIS website)

So, of course after I reassembled it the noise was worse than before . The next day I took it over to Pep Boys where I get most of my maintenance supplies and told them I had front axle noise and what the dealer had said. They jacked up the car while I watched and after 15 minutes called me out and told me that the tires had good tread but had uneven wear and flat spots on the drive surfaces. They replaced the tires and did a front end alignment and the problem was solved. (They also said that their computer estimator came back with a rate of 2.5 hrs @ $69/hr for the wheel bearing repair).

So I went back to the service manager at the dealer, and she said that the technician diagnosed "the most pressing problem" first and would have found the tire problem later and that they normally only inspect tires for tread depth...therefore refused to refund the diagnostic fee.

Sorry for the long winded post, but if you're still reading by now my question is this. Should I be miffed that the dealer engaged in deceptive and misleading business practices? First, they charged me a diagnostic fee and didn't even provide a simple visual inspection. Second, the premium rates they charge are well known, but they wanted more than double the time it took an amateur with a jack and a wrench to do the repair.

[Sheepdog]

I would be pissed yes. I also would never darken their door again! Find another dealer or Prius saavy auto shop! Also I would write a letter to the General Mgr of the dealership and copy the states attorney in your state as this over charging sounds like a legal issue. Dealers are always expensive yes. My local dealer wanted to charge me $59 for my first oil change when it is on the window sticker as free !

Caveat Emptor I guess

[Rokeby]

Originally Posted by rhbirkhahn

I've got a general question for the collected group
here...

... Should I be miffed that the dealer engaged in deceptive and
misleading business practices? First, they charged me a diagnostic fee and
didn't even provide a simple visual inspection. Second, the premium rates
they charge are well known, but they wanted more than double the time it
took an amateur with a jack and a wrench to do the repair.

rhbirkhahn,

Welcome to PriusChat, nice to have you aboard.

So as to help other folks not get taken in by this disservice dept., would you
give us the name of the stealership?

If it's in my neck of the woods, I'd sure like to know.

Psst! Including your state/city and model year in your avatar <------
is really helpful to folks trying to help. Just thought you'd like to know.

[galaxee]

welcome to the world of flat rate... they're going to charge you the book rate regardless of how much time it actually takes. that $98/hour doesn't mean you get to stand there with a stopwatch, but it also means that if a 4.5 hour job takes the guy 7 hours, you're still only paying the 4.5 hour figure. (and the tech only gets paid for 4.5 hours of work.)

it screws people over both ways depending on the job.

sure they should have checked the tires. that was a stupid miss and a lost opportunity for them to earn you as a regular customer. but they did find that your bearing was bad, yes? that's what the diagnostic fee is for- so they don't give out free inspections, basically. they may waive the fee if you get the repair done with them. but if you expect someone to tell you that you have a bad wheel bearing for free and then walk away and diy/do it elsewhere... good luck. nobody works for free.

glad you got the problem fixed- rule #1 is to go to a shop you trust. if pep boys did a good job, stick with them until you actually need the dealer shop for a warranty or specialty job.

*edit: DH is starting to recover from his headache... says wheel bearings do not "intermittently freeze." so the professional verdict is that the guy was an idiot or trying to make a buck off you. i will leave the general discussion re: diagnostic fees and flat rate times for others to see, but you should officially never have that tech under your car again.

[Patrick Wong]

Was the right front wheel bearing really bad?

Or was the problem simply that the tires were out-of-round?

[Joe 26]

YES! The dealer is either incompetant or unethical! I don't know which is worse!

[rhbirkhahn]

Thanks for the responses. I actually live on Long Island, I didn't name the dealer because my intent isn't to trash the dealership. I've used them for three vehicles now and they've worked on this prius now for the last 4 years (mostly warranty stuff). My major complaint is they're not real friendly to the DIY types.

I absolutely don't expect to get a diagnosis for free, and I was aware of the diagnostic fee when I took the vehicle in. My major issue is they didn't bother to look at the car. I'm not even sure that they bothered to put the car on the lift, and if they did I'm sure they took a few short cuts. The first step is to verify the customer complaint, then to isolate the front axle noise, the next step is to look at the tires for signs of excess wear, uneveness, and symmetry. (I read this on the Toyota tech line after...while I've been sitting here steaming about the dealer). So basically I paid a diagnostic fee for a dealer to guess without looking at the vehicle?

And then there's the darker question, I took the vehicle to the dealer because I couldn't find a problem with the bearing to begin with. There was no lateral play in the bearing, there was no grinding when running the hub with or without the tire on, and even out of the spindle I can turn the bearing freely by hand. The bearing may have lead to uneven wear on the tires, or perhaps it was alignment, but there are no obvious signs that the bearing is bad off the vehicle now.

[galaxee]

see my edit about the "intermittent freezing" issue. my professional has been incapacitated most of today, i was spouting general information in the main post.

[philmcneal]

as a DIYer how could you not see it yourself that your front tires had abnormal wear? I find it hard an alignment can solve a noise issue hmmm

[rhbirkhahn]

Originally Posted by Sheepdog

Also I would write a letter to the General Mgr of the dealership and copy the states attorney in your state as this over charging sounds like a legal issue.

That's my next course of action, although technically they didn't repair the bearing...so its just overestimating (and charging me for a diagnostic service they didn't provide). I sent a letter highlighting my issues to the dealer I took the position that if they wanted to grossly overcharge for the service that was fine but I wouldn't be coming back, but I took issue with the fact they didn't bother to look at the car. I got a call from the service manager who told me they weren't responsible for anything because they didn't do the repair.

So I disputed the charge with my credit card and after they said they weren't in a position to judge if the repair was necessary or the service was adequate.

So I sent a complaint to our county Office of Consumer Affairs and got an investigator to call me back and tell me that they will only refer actual repairs to the DMV who would have to see the vehicle in its broken condition...and that having the part wouldn't help them .

So I looked up the local and NY state statutes. There is a state code which prohibits "deceptive and misleading" business practices in the delivery of goods or services. The standard actually doesn't require that actual fraud (in the legal definition) occur, it only requires that a practice (including auto repair) be misleading to a reasonably informed layperson.

I believe that charging me for a diagnosis when they didn't look at the vehicle and then trying to double the labor charges (whether needed or not) meet this standard. And the fact that the dealer twice declined to refund the diagnostic fee and defended their actions as appropriate in general (while ignoring both the lack of a visual inspection and the over estimate) suggests to me that these actions are "knowing and willful".

The remedy for which is triple damages under NY state law with a minimum $2,500 fine to Nassau County and a maximum $3,000 fine to NY state for each offense.

So I sued the dealer in small claims court since it is the last remedy left to me, and I really do feel like the dealer tried to rip me off. I got a call from the general manager of the dealership...he wants to meet me, but to be honest I am skeptical how another meeting will help the issue.