Lutz hints at Pure EV Volt

[TransferFunction]

Instead of going pure EV, they should put cheaper NMH batteries (no Li-Ion expensive, hot ones) in a Volt, get 15-20 miles out of a 500 lb NMH battery pack, and use a small 1.0L 3-cylinder engine to just recharge the batteries. Overall, you'd get about 50 MPG easily and great range. But Noooooo, GM in all their wisdom has chosen to put Li-Ion batteries in that only Donald Trump can afford. And remember those Li-Ion batteries must be cooled like crazy so they don't explode/catch-fire. Maybe Li-Ion batteries will get cheap enough and they solve the melt-down problems in about ten years or so, but until then they could have a dependable, cheaper NMH-based product with a tiny gasoline engine operating in its sweet spot for max efficiency. No all-EV, and no crazy premature attempt at stuffing Li-Ion batteries in a series hybrid before that tech is ready. And the Volt fans out there know how great it would be to do away with the transmission, as series hybrids like this do.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by TransferFunction

Instead of going pure EV, they should put cheaper NMH batteries (no Li-Ion expensive, hot ones) in a Volt, get 15-20 miles out of a 500 lb NMH battery pack, and use a small 1.0L 3-cylinder engine to just recharge the batteries. Overall, you'd get about 50 MPG easily and great range. But Noooooo, GM in all their wisdom has chosen to put Li-Ion batteries in that only Donald Trump can afford........

GM can't use NiMH batteries unless Chevron lets them. Cobasys (a joint venture between Chevron and Ovonics) holds the patents for NiMH batteries until 2015. GM used to own part of these patents but sold their share to Chevron after the killed the EV1 program.

[TransferFunction]

Couldn't GM source the NMH batteries elsewhere? I personally know of one company, Nilar, that would be happy to produce their NMH batteries. Nilar currently supplies NMH to plug-in Prius conversions. Are you saying that Cobasys owns a patent covering the NMH basic chemistry? That can't be right; everybody seems to sell NMH batteries.

[daniel]

Originally Posted by TransferFunction

Instead of going pure EV, they should put cheaper NMH batteries (no Li-Ion expensive, hot ones) in a Volt, get 15-20 miles out of a 500 lb NMH battery pack, and use a small 1.0L 3-cylinder engine to just recharge the batteries. Overall, you'd get about 50 MPG easily and great range. But Noooooo, GM in all their wisdom has chosen to put Li-Ion batteries in that only Donald Trump can afford. And remember those Li-Ion batteries must be cooled like crazy so they don't explode/catch-fire.

Lithium-Iron-Phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries do not experience thermal run-away and do not require cooling. So this is no longer an issue. Tesla Motors uses Li-Ion and a fancy liquid-cooling system because they designed the Roadster before the LiFePO4 were available, and because laptop batteries are readily available. But nowadays most people going to lithium are using safe LiFePO4. (Including me, in my Xebra.)

Originally Posted by TransferFunction

Couldn't GM source the NMH batteries elsewhere? I personally know of one company, Nilar, that would be happy to produce their NMH batteries. Nilar currently supplies NMH to plug-in Prius conversions. Are you saying that Cobasys owns a patent covering the NMH basic chemistry? That can't be right; everybody seems to sell NMH batteries.

It's not a question of who produces the batteries. Cobysys owns the patent, so nobody can legally produce them without permission, and they are not giving permission for anything larger than the battery in the Prius.

Our idiotic patent laws allow a patent holder to keep a technology off the market for cynical reasons, even when that technology is critical for national security, as in the case of energy dependence.

[tripp]

Daniel's right. Panasonic got in trouble with Cobasys for the batteries that they produced for the RAV-4EV. The patent expires either in 2009 or 2015. I'm not sure which. Of course, NiMH is not the future of battery tech, but Daniel's point about the cynicism is quite valid. A patent should be be honoured if the holder is just sitting on it, making no attempt to manufacture or market the product. It's absurd.

[TransferFunction]

Thanks for the info, hybrid people. However, as long as NiMH batteries, such as those in the Prius, are durable, and much cheaper than Li-Ion batteries, they are a good choice for hybrid vehicles. Plug-in hybrids such as the Chevy Volt or the next Prius can still get good electric-only range using NiMH batteries. The Volt will 40 mile range with Li-Ions, and can get 20 miles with NiMH, still resulting in good overall performance at a reasonable cost with durable, proven tech.

[hill]

If they DO make another EV? Will they call it EV1-enstein, or will they call it Franken1 ??

[TransferFunction]

OK, if NiMH batteries are not a good idea (patent problems) then maybe the solution is to use only half as many Li-Ion batteries, getting a 20 mile EV-only range (instead of 40 miles), which would then enable them to shrink the gas engine down just a bit, and it would make the vehicle lighter overall. Most of all, it would reduce the price by $4,000, since the Li-Ion batteries are expensive. Also, acceleration and handling would be better. They could use the same Volt chassis and body, only having to lighten up the springs a bit. More people could afford it, and it would still easily get 50 MPG year around. Also, less strain on the electrical grid at the start of this EV revolution in society. Then, GM could gradually, over several years, increase the EV-only range of the vehicle, something to offer new buyers every year.

[miscrms]

Originally Posted by TransferFunction

OK, if NiMH batteries are not a good idea (patent problems) then maybe the solution is to use only half as many Li-Ion batteries, getting a 20 mile EV-only range (instead of 40 miles), which would then enable them to shrink the gas engine down just a bit, and it would make the vehicle lighter overall. Most of all, it would reduce the price by $4,000, since the Li-Ion batteries are expensive. Also, acceleration and handling would be better. They could use the same Volt chassis and body, only having to lighten up the springs a bit. More people could afford it, and it would still easily get 50 MPG year around. Also, less strain on the electrical grid at the start of this EV revolution in society. Then, GM could gradually, over several years, increase the EV-only range of the vehicle, something to offer new buyers every year.

I think you're on the right track. I've been arguing a similar point. 40 mile range is great until you have to pay for the batteries. Li-ion being 1/2 the weight of NimH is great, until you have to pay for the batteries. I think Toyota's presumed strategy of starting with a 10 mile range in either NimH or Lion at an added cost of $3-5k makes a lot more sense than GM going for 40 miles of Lion range at an added cost of ~$15-$20k

FWIW, GM is buying the NimH for their current "hybrids" from.... Cobasys. Chevron hadn't shown any real interest in selling NimH to anyone until GM came back on the scene. Of course, GM just had to recall all their hybrid batteries. And now they are thinking about trying to buy back part or all of Cobasys from Chevron, who they sold it to 10 years ago. These people are geniuses I tell you!

Rob

[tochatihu]

The Cobasys patent issue is explained here:

EV World Blogs: Personal Perspectives on the Future In Motion

pretty well. I wish I knew the actual US patent # that is at the center of this issue. Ovonics has quite a few.