Winter operation of GM Volt

[john1701a]

Originally Posted by qbee42

While I don't have any solid information, it is almost certain that the GM Volt will use a resistive heater unit. A heat pump unit would fail to efficiently provide heat in real winter conditions, so some sort of backup heater is needed.

Yup, I agree with that "almost certain" too.

But the enthusiasts certainly hadn't... hence me explicitly asking. They claimed that all it would need was the pump... which made no sense from an efficiency point-of-view in extreme conditions. Then when you add the need for defrosting too, their answer falls way short.

Regardless, with the extra electricity draw in the winter, range expectations shouldn't be "40 miles".

.

[viking31]

Originally Posted by john1701a

Some enthusiasts are already disenchanted from learning that winter will require the engine to run, wrecking their "no gas ever" hope. Li-Ion requires warmth. Frozen from sitting in a parking lot without a plug available while you work for 9 hours means heat is needed quickly from something. Gas will be consumed to provide that.

Big deal. My Prius gets terrible mileage in the winter relative to mild weather driving. And I live in FL. I can only imagine what my mileage would be in Michigan.

Anywho, the problem gets worse (reinforces the clever design of Prius) when you ask the next question...

How will the system provide DEFROST for the windows in the winter?

If the A/C operates in reverse as a heat-pump to provide warmth, what will dehumidify the air so condensation doesn’t build up on the glass?

In both traditional vehicles and FULL hybrids, this is accomplished by running both the Heater and A/C at the same time. If Volt only has a single system available, how will it condition the winter air to deal with both cold & moisture?

John, you word these questions as if a middle school student aspiring to be an engineer is the sole designer and engineer for the Volt. Do you really think they forgot that moisture buildup on the windshield during the winter can be a problem? And what is so "clever" regarding the Prius's method to remove moisture from the vehicle during the winter by using the A/C combined with the heat??? Automobiles have been doing this since A/C was first installed in automobiles.

And with regards to the battery, you can be rest assured they have memos which needed to be bound describing in intricate detail the pros and cons of any and all available battery types which could be used in the Volt. Although I am not privy to their internal communications, I am confident the Li-Ion was chosen based on availability, cost, safety, reliability, etc. over perhaps dozens of other possible types known.

Many on this board despise GM (and I don't particularly care for their products too) but the fact is they still sell over 13 million automobiles per year worldwide. With so much riding on the Volt, I am sure they have more than a couple of 20 year old baby faced engineers working on the vehicle.

Rick
#4 2006
.

[qbee42]

Originally Posted by viking31

<snip> With so much riding on the Volt, I am sure they have more than a couple of 20 year old baby faced engineers working on the vehicle.

Rick
#4 2006
.

One sixty year old engineer, two 20 year old baby faced engineers, and 653 marketing guys.

Tom

[john1701a]

Originally Posted by viking31

Do you really think they forgot that moisture buildup on the windshield during the winter can be a problem?

Of course not. But those on the blog site dedicated to Volt certainly do... hence the particular wording. Some there have been insisting only a heat-pump is needed and others simply evade the question. So, I thought of a new one and asked it in simpliest terms. After all, that's the best way to avoid misunderstandings.

Detail is what we ultimately need. And that research/gathering technique worked well with the mixed messages from Two-Mode... which was also hyped with lots of vague claims.

.

[john1701a]

Originally Posted by qbee42

One sixty year old engineer, two 20 year old baby faced engineers, and 653 marketing guys.

"With so much riding on the Volt" leaves you wondering.

Volt certainly will not save GM from the financial troubles it now suffers. It is the establishment of a new platform that will serve well for the long-term, domestically anyway. But Profit & Volume simply won't be there for many years still.

What happens in the meantime is a much bigger deal.

.

[n8kwx]

Chevy could easily use a page from the EV1 book. (or the old Ford book)

Use a heated windshield... Put the heat exactly where it's needed.

[donee]

Hi All,

The long term solution might be a thermo-photovotaic generator. The waste heat would go out through a heat exchanger, like the houshold furnace. The unit could double duty as the prime-mover as well. When the battery and passenger compartment are colde, the electricity for the motor comes from the generator.

A short term solution would be an exhaust/liquid heat exchanger, that heats up coolant that is circulated into the heating system. This would be safer than a exhaust / air heat exchanger.

[darelldd]

Originally Posted by john1701a

Are you saying that the "heat pump system" actually has two seperate components within or is there a continuously alternating process to first do one then the other?

Detail please.

Two complete heat pump systems. The system also employs a variable rate compressor for efficiency. I don't live where there is extreme cold. We only get to the 20's here, but the heater will create more heat than I want. It will also cool at over 110 ambient. All this info is in regard to the Rav4EV as I originally posted. I have no idea what the Volt will do - I just know what's possible.

Originally Posted by qbee42

The heater is a simple electrical resistance heater.

Hold the phone. No. Abosultely not. There is no resistance heater in the Rav4EV. Nor was there one in the EV1. One of the EV pickups at a kerosene heater. Yup, and EV with an exhaust pipe - just like the new Volt!

Originally Posted by qbee42

Rav4EV, as well as any other EV with heat.

No idea where this information came from. I can tell you with certainty that it is wrong. In fact only a few EVs had resistance heat. Way too inefficient compared to a heat pump.

While I don't have any solid information, it is almost certain that the GM Volt will use a resistive heater unit.

I don't know why it would need to, though I have NO idea what the plans are for the Volt.

A heat pump unit would fail to efficiently provide heat in real winter conditions

Here in CA, I don't claim to live in "real" winter conditions, so can't comment. A heat pump certainly works well below freezing. But likely not well below zero.

Originally Posted by n8kwx

Chevy could easily use a page from the EV1 book. (or the old Ford book)

Use a heated windshield... Put the heat exactly where it's needed.

And the Rav4EV. The Rav uses full pack voltage of almost 400VDC to clean the windshield. In the worst conditions, you have a totally clear view - edge to edge - in under a minute.

[qbee42]

Thanks for correcting me Darrell, my mistake.

Tom

[daniel]

Originally Posted by viking31

Big deal. My Prius gets terrible mileage in the winter relative to mild weather driving. And I live in FL. I can only imagine what my mileage would be in Michigan. [...]

So you think it's no big deal that a car marketed as an electric car with a range extender, claiming to burn gas only when you have to drive more than 40 miles, so that the commuter never uses any gas, is suddenly a gasoline car that burns gas all the time in winter???

I think that's a very big deal!!! If you just want a car that burns gas efficiently, get a Prius. The appeal of the Volt is precisely that if your daily driving is 40 miles or less, you never need to burn any gasoline. No carbon (if you have renewable electricity), no pollution, and no $$$ going to Saudi Arabia to fund al Qaeda.

Now they're telling us that in winter the Volt will be just another gasoline car, and one that only goes 2/3 as far on a gallon of gas as the Prius does!

Originally Posted by john1701a

... Volt certainly will not save GM from the financial troubles it now suffers. It is the establishment of a new platform that will serve well for the long-term...

You misunderstand the purpose of the Volt program, and the way GM hopes it will save them financially:

They never intended to actually sell the Volt, or even to build a real one. The Volt is an advertising campaign, for a non-existent car, intended to convince the American public that GM is really trying to address energy issues, so that the public will accept a federal bail-out of GM, on the grounds that GM is doing something for the nation, so the nation needs to support them. Then, after the bailout, they can eject on their golden parachutes and let the company crash and burn and all the employees go unemployed while all the bailout money leaves the top executives wealthy enough to satisfy Croesus for life.

Originally Posted by donee

The long term solution might be a thermo-photovotaic generator. The waste heat would go out through a heat exchanger, like the houshold furnace. The unit could double duty as the prime-mover as well. When the battery and passenger compartment are colde, the electricity for the motor comes from the generator.

A short term solution would be an exhaust/liquid heat exchanger, that heats up coolant that is circulated into the heating system. This would be safer than a exhaust / air heat exchanger.

It sounds to me as though you are describing a gasoline car. "Thermovoltaic" and "waste heat" suggests you assume there's a gas engine creating waste heat.

The Volt is supposed to be an electric car that only uses a gas engine as a range extender!!!!!!!