Has GM overdesigned the Volt: Is a 40-mile all electric range too much?

[SageBrush]

Does anybody know what the sustained max power draw from the battery in deplete-mode is spec'd for the Volt ? Good links get extra Karma.

[PriuStorm]

Originally Posted by prberg

40 mile range is not too much! I drive 25 miles to work and 25 miles back. So I guess I could get away with a 50 mile range.. but 60 would be better.

sure there will be more charging stations in the future.. but to get people to start buying electic cars... you don't want them to worry if they will make it home on their charge.

I'd say 60 miles would be good. More of course is better.

I think that's the point.... more ISN'T better. If you have a 40 mile charge and you need to go 60 miles, you just go 60 miles... the first 40 on pure EV, and the second 20 the gas will kick in and get you there.

Those pushing for higher and higher range will need more and more battery storage = higher cost. The 40 mile range wasn't a number picked out of a hat.... About 5 years ago, I saw a presentation on PHEVs by Dr. Andy Frank. I remember him saying that there had been all kinds of studies done to evaluate what the true need was for pure EV range. Again, remember, this is for PHEVs.... when you run out of battery, you keep going on the gas.

[DaveinOlyWA]

we did have a great railroad. but it was run by a very small group of greedy people who despite their enormous reputations,

were not

good businessmen
not very smart
self centered egotists

who attempted (and failed) to right their shortcomings by giving away a lot of their money.

what they did not do was build any support for their business, nor did they reinvest, spend money on research or try to partner with other large businesses in order to expand their offering and worth to the community.

so they were destined to fail. and now we are left with a small enclave of the very rich who took the money skimmed off the business to live out the rest of their lives in luxury

the railroad concept is so right on so many different levels, but its like being associated with hitler...

does anyone really care that hitler took a country that was shattered in to pieces and rebuilt it to become a major power in a few short years orchastrating one of the greatest financial turnarounds in history??

ya... thats what i thought.... well the railroads screwed over so many people on so many different levels, they might as well be called hitler

[a priori]

Originally Posted by PriuStorm

I think that's the point.... more ISN'T better. If you have a 40 mile charge and you need to go 60 miles, you just go 60 miles... the first 40 on pure EV, and the second 20 the gas will kick in and get you there.

Those pushing for higher and higher range will need more and more battery storage = higher cost.

AND more weight. There comes a point of diminishing returns. More and more battery weight means more structural strength which adds more weight. This requires a different suspension system with larger wheels and wider tires, all adding weight and drag. Until someone builds a lighter battery that has all of the right performance and reliability characteristics necessary, the limits of weight are quite real.

[DaveinOlyWA]

what a waste of time

gm, put if off another 6 months, by then you will have worn out your welcome in Washington and then we can stop looking at you PERIOD

[rpatterman]

Great thread! Almost didn't read it because I thought it would only be about a car that does not exist from a company that I hate.

Lots of good stuff from trains to BEVs to PHEVs. I still see a lot of "...EVs will never work because I drive __ (insert number here) miles everyday....". No single vehicle will work for everyone all the time.
ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL! Most families own two (or more) cars, rarely would both need to be long distance capable.

In 2 to 5 years we should see a full range of "alternative" cars to meet all sorts of "needs".

-PHEV with all EV ranges from 20 to 100miles. Pick your range and price.

-BEVs from 50 to 200?. Pick your range and price. PV optional.

-NEVs for very short range.

-Small trucks and vans for city deliveries (both BEV and PHEV)
I want lots of options from lots of manufacturers!

Random Thoughts:

-Stimulus package should massively "stimulate" the battery industry.
Buy or liberate the Cheveron battery Patent (tell the republicans its a national security issue). We should be exporting battery technology, not importing. Stimulus bill should be creating industries not just jobs. Stimulus bill should prepare us for when gas is $4 again and we all know it will be. Next time gas hits $4 we could just say, "No thanks, don't need it"
Create a $100M X-Prize.

-Buy the car but lease the battery. Lowers initial cost, eliminates fears of investing too much in soon to be old technology. Able to upgrade.


-Stations to swap out batteries for longer trips will not work in USA.
Too many roads and locations. Too many different sizes. The number of batteries and locations needed would be huge and it would totally fail if the batteries were in the wrong location and not available when I need them. Until battery technology drastically changes we will need PHEV or ICE or LLB (long lunch break) for long distance.

-Instead of investing large sums in expensive infrastructure (electric highways, swapping stations, every parking lot having charging stations, hydrogen highway, etc) let's focus on creating a BEV/PHEV industry that meets 80-90% of our needs.

-More Car-Share programs for our twice a year need for truck or big SUV or long road trip.

-Charging stations will not require government spending! We already know that most recharging will be done at night in the privacy of our own home. But if I owned a restaurant or truck stop half way between LA and Las Vegas or LA and SF, I would be installing charging stations for my front row parking and giving electricity away for free. If I was a big employer or retailer, I would be putting front row charging stations in for my employees or customers. Bonus points if I give you covered parking (covered with PV of course). If I owned an apartment complex, motel, etc etc. How about a combo parking meter/charging station, just swipe that credit card, buy time and juice. Free enterprise will take care of this part of the equation.


-Grid Improvements will be needed. First and cheapest: time of day metering and pricing. BEVs should be recharged overnight when we have excess capacity. Second: add distributed PV right in the cities, cover the rooftops. My neighborhood sucks for PV (too many trees and roofs run the wrong direction) but the corner store has 50,000 sf of wasted roof. Third and most expensive: extend power lines from cities to rural wind and solar.

-At some point the electric supply in the USA will need to be nationalized ,and no I am not a communist. For-profit power generation will conflict with efficency. Does Xcel Energy really want my Net-Zero-Energy home as a customer? As we move more to Renewable Energy it will become less profitable to maintain the capacity for the cloudy, wind free day. Things that are not profitable AND require huge amounts of capital tend to be better done by government (like water supply and education).

-Require government vehicles to be EV (easily 40-60% could work)(American made of course). Create demand! Government is buying vehicles anyway, why not buy green, non oil burning, low maintence. Easy over night charging at lower rates.

-Recreate the rail system in the most populated areas of the country.
Take a high speed train from LA to SF and rent a small BEV right at the station. Door to door it should be faster than flying. Half of all long distance freight should be on our new improved rail system.

-Work with auto makers to fast track diesels like the Ford Fiesta ECOnetic (63 mpg) for approval in the USA. Does a 63mpg diesel really pollute more than a SUV? As we move more freight by rail, diesel will come down in price.

-Life on an Island. Just got back from Cozumel. Great diving, but the congestion and air pollution from 600 cabs and 1000 rental cars was over whelming. It's a frick'in island, NO ONE could drive more than 100 miles if they wanted to and the center of the island is perfect for large scale PV! Other than a few delivery trucks and a few hybrid buses there should not be a single ICE on the island! Same with Hawaii!

-Stimulate non-corn, low-water ethanol. Switchgrass, hemp, caster beans, algae, anything is better than million year old fossil fuels bought from terrorists. First step on this is to do away with the Iowa Caucus so presidential candidates could stop kissing the ass of the corn industry.

-Fix ICEs, they will still exist. Require Flex Fuel (costs $100/car). Require Real Time MPG displays (another $100?) I bet the mileage of even a monster SUV could improve with instant feed back.

-Spend stimulus money on bike paths and mass transit.

Instead of GM begging Congress for money they should be reading this forum and seeing opportunity, not crisis. Instead of Congress giving the Not So Big Three, $30B or $40B more, why not give all the small alternative car companies a billion or so with a requirement that they need to use domestic vendors. Big shot in the arm for Detroit and Ohio and Indiana.

Done ranting (for now)

[DaveinOlyWA]

well i see GM back in Washington with its hands out

Force them to develop a BEV...then they have the money...no development money?? well guess you will have to bring back the EV 1, sell it until you can get the money

[Mike Dimmick]

Originally Posted by rpatterman

-Work with auto makers to fast track diesels like the Ford Fiesta ECOnetic (63 mpg) for approval in the USA. Does a 63mpg diesel really pollute more than a SUV? As we move more freight by rail, diesel will come down in price.

I'm going to call this out every time I see it. That's 76.3mpg on the EU NEDC dyno test. The Prius gets 65.7mpg on the same test. The raw dyno result is reported; it is not discounted as the EPA used to do (perhaps still does? this is unclear), and the test does not include cold weather, A/C use, or high-speed driving (added to EPA tests in '06). It uses a different driving cycle. Do not compare EU to EPA figures.

It's hard to say whether it pollutes more than an SUV. Choose one for comparison from here, but compare only within Euro 4 (the Fiesta hasn't been tested to Euro 5 yet, and I think there might be a change in the test parameters since the X3 xDrive 20 shows much lower emissions on Euro 5, unless that's a model change as well).

[rpatterman]

Originally Posted by Mike Dimmick

I'm going to call this out every time I see it. That's 76.3mpg on the EU NEDC dyno test. It's hard to say whether it pollutes more than an SUV.

Thanks for the correction. I knew I was comparing apples to oranges, but my point is diesels have come along way in MPG and emissions.

If we are going to rebuild the American auto industry, it would be great if the Big 3 could bring in high mileage cars they have already developed. Are the EU countries really that much easier on emissions or are they just easier on red tape and testing? Would US cars be more competitive in the world markets if we all adopted the same standards?

There are a lot of things we could be doing for the US auto industry other than just handing them money. Bringing high mileage US built cars to the US market would be #1.

[Fibb222]

GM Volt Cost May Limit Value to Drivers, Study Finds Bloomberg.com: U.S.