Alternative Energy thread

[jfschultz]

Here is a thread from another board that provided an opportunity to bring in Prius.

Bladestunner316 - 4-19-2004 at 08:14 PM  
I think it would be possible to use alternative energy sources that would be much safer on us, more efficient, and less harmful on the environment. In opposition to coal, oil, and other fossil fuels.  

Any Suggestions?  

I think the one thing thats causing us to not do this is because alot of big business, politicians, and the public depend so much on oil for instance that it would cost trillions to get it started and switch over.  

But I believe in the long run it would be more beneficial.

puritansailor - 4-19-2004 at 09:19 PM  
For now, oil will have to do. The technology just isn't there yet to replace it. And there's plenty of it too. Last I heard, there's enough oil to last us 300 more years. That's plenty of time to perfect our alternative technologies. No need to rush and make stupid decisions, like many eco-freaks and tree-huggers would like us to do. Plus, our cars are much more cleaner burning now, and are getting better.  

One major alternative which is safe and efficient is Nuclear Power. But people are so afraid of another Chernobyl they don't want it. The technology is so much more advanced now. They now have designs for breeder reactors which burn not only the Uranium but also all the waste products. Imagine that! NO toxic waste!  

Solar could use some work too. I think Hydrogen power looks very promising but it still needs alot of development.  
 
Bladestunner316 - 4-19-2004 at 10:54 PM  
I agree it is definitely something that should not be rushed but it should take place and move forward.  
 
Mary - 4-20-2004 at 11:17 AM  
I keep hearing about these hydrogen fuel cells - don't know much about them though.  

I think we definitely need to work towards ending our dependence on oil - our relationship with the Middle East is like a really bad, co-dependent, abusive marriage.
 
Bladestunner316 - 4-20-2004 at 02:59 PM
agreed there are two ways to get hydrogen the better way which is from oxygen and water(or just one of them) and from oil.  
 
jfschultz - 4-20-2004 at 03:23 PM  
The big problem is the infrastructure for alternative fuels that is needed and takes years, or decades, to build. The infrastructure to supply gas for cars is there and the technology to use it much more efficiently is finally getting practical.  

A MIT study concluded that by getting the average MPG for cars up to 40, it would take less than a decade to eliminate our dependence on OPEC oil! Forty MPG! The Prius and Civic Hybrid are there and Ford expects the Escape Hybrid to get 35 - 40 MPG.  

(Yes, I am putting my money on the line and waiting to get the Prius I ordered.)
 
puritansailor - 4-20-2004 at 04:19 PM  
Those Hybrids will work great for urban driving but if you want to haul a load or drive on the freeway, they won't do so hot. At least, they haven't got that far yet in the development.
 
jfschultz - 4-20-2004 at 08:17 PM  
And what percentage of the average person's driving requires hauling a load. Also on the freeway the Prius will go fast enough to get someone wearing a uniform to get you to pull over for a piece of paper!
 
Bladestunner316 - 4-20-2004 at 08:18 PM  
Well all of us bookies we cant go anywhere without our precious books    
 
puritansailor - 4-20-2004 at 08:22 PM  
Exactly!  Prius just won't cut it for us reformed folk.  
 
Bladestunner316 - 4-20-2004 at 08:59 PM  
Well maybe we could cut back and get paperbacks  
 
jfschultz - 4-21-2004 at 06:55 AM  
As Reformed Christians we need to get off our bed of TULIPs and our noses out of dusty old tomes and apply our theology to all areas of our lives. There are too many semi-reformed folk floating around to think TULIP defines reformed theology and can't get beyond that.  Notice that both the WCF 1647 and the LBCF 1689, required for joining this discussion board, go well beyond TULIP.  

To me buying a Prius is a simple, straight forward, and yes even no-brainer, application of the Cultural Mandate ( Gen 1:28 ). We are stewards of God's creation and not given carte blanche to plunderer it for our pleasure.

Some definitions
TULIP (not the flower) the Canons of Dort
T - Total Depravity
U - Unconditional Election
L - Limited Attonement
I - Irresistable Grace
P - Perseverance of the Saints
WCF - Westminster Confession of Faith
LBCF - London Baptist Confession of Faith

[twindad]

Hmmm...300 years of oil. I've heard estimates from 10 to 500 years. I guess we'll know for sure when it's all gone. ...And when the last well goes dry, I'm sure conspiracy theories will abound about evil empires hording the world's oil.

[NorthStar]

Don't forget Mars. We're looking for more than water there! :mrgreen:

Mark

[charlieh]

The real issue is that petroleum is a limited resource and drawdown of a limited non-renewable resource is not a strategy that works. There are those who know this and simply think that some new unknown technology will be discovered that will allow us to continue our current lifestyle unchanged. That is a risky approach. Petroleum IS needed for certain things for which a substitute will be difficult to develop. Aircraft, for example, or feed stock for most plastics and many medications. Viewing our current lifestyle and habits as "non negotiable" is at best foolish and at worst suicidal. Unfortunately, we all have to do SOME driving because the infrastructure does not exist to make it possible (at least in most urban areas) to not drive. So, if we have to drive, let it be a Prius. We must extend the Petroleum Era (Heinberg in The Party's Over refuses to call it an "Era" but rather an "Interval" due to it's VERY brief lifespan. Even the most wildly optimistic see oil peaking before 2035 and most well before that. The implications for the industrial world are enormous and a prudent society would already be looking to develop "Plan B".

[Sun__Tzu]

It was my understanding that hydrogen fuel cells aren't much of an alternative energy. Its nice and all that "the only emissions are water", but then there's the actual production of hydrogen, which isn't so clean.

Personally, I'm pretty big on solar power. I think most homes can provide a vast majority of their own power with solar cells on their roof. Most people imagine a "solar power plant" as a huge array of panels and mirrors in the desert, stretched across a huge field. Naturally, there's no space for such a setup in a big city. But in the suburbs, the "field" could just be people's houses. It makes so much sense, which is probably why it won't happen until energy prices cripple the country.

And if you get right down to it, its all solar power. Nuclear, natural gas, oil, coal is ALL derived from solar energy. Its too bad the big oil companies are too powerful to be taken down and too short-sighted to invest in these technologies.

[Marg]

Actually, at least two petroleum companies now have solar energy divisions -- BP and Shell. There might be more.

Some energy companies are starting to "get it" but, in my opinion, not quickly enough.

I think solar is a great way to go. The technology has not yet advanced to the point where it is easy to use and economical (especially here in Canada), but I think that day will be coming soon.

Before our old car started sputtering and we decided to put our cash towards a Prius, my husband and I seriously considered getting a solar water heating system. However, it was going to be a little inconvenient to install, and we were going to have to pay someone to do it, so we were hesitating. By the time we're in a position to consider adding solar technology to our home again, I hope that things will have gotten to the point where we can buy it from the local Home Depot and do it ourselves.

Hey! One can always dream....

Margaret

[Wolfman]

This seeemed more appropriate for the evironmental forums.

[daniel]

I don't think oil is going to suddenly "run out." I think it's going to get progressively more expensive to get it out of the ground, as we deplete the shallow reserves and have to go deeper, and as we have to go to great lengths to suck the dregs out of individual deposits. Thus we may indeed have 300 years of oil. But in 50 years it may cost $100 a gallon.

But then the people making our energy policy are not going to be alive in 50 years, so they couldn't care less.

[plusaf]

I don't think oil is going to suddenly "run out." I think it's going to get progressively more expensive to get it out of the ground, as we deplete the shallow reserves and have to go deeper, and as we have to go to great lengths to suck the dregs out of individual deposits. Thus we may indeed have 300 years of oil. But in 50 years it may cost $100 a gallon.
But then the people making our energy policy are not going to be alive in 50 years, so they couldn't care less.

and the nearby-to-me-town of Los Gatos, CA, the City Council wouldn't let a solar energy firm put solar cells on the roof of their building because it upset the "look and feel" of the town. nor would they let the firm use actual solar cells as a facade around the roofline to hide the real solar cell farm.

---takes all kinds...

in my area, for an initial investment of about $20-40,000, i could install a big enough system to pump net kilowatts OUT of my house, reducing my electric bill to just a connect charge. it would pump enough juice out through the wattmeter so that what we consume during non-generating hours wouldn't bring the meter back to where it started!

but the return on investment is still pretty poor, due to the cost of the system versus the cost of electricity. :guns: Darn!

still buying lotto tickets....

[Sun__Tzu]

plusaf, that's kinda surprising, given the fairly progressive nature of the Bay Area. BTW, what happens during the winter, when it rains virtually every day? Is solar still viable then?

In Montgomery County, MD (where I live), the county has just passed a resolution to buy wind-generated power from West Virginia. This'll power 5% of all county buildings, with hopes for an increase in the future. They're pairing it with an energy reduction initiative: each county building will have a person designated to turn off all the lights and such at the end of the day, in order to save power. Something so simple, a 4th grader could have come up with it. It makes me sad/angry to see so many office buildngs with all their lights (and I'd assume, computers) running at night, when its clear that the buildings are completely empty.