Resale value of homes with solar panels...

[burritos]

In the midst of the real estate "soft landing" correction I was wondering what types of upgrades or amenities exist to entice buyers. Everyone has different tastes. Some people like inifinity pools, some people like granite counter tops, some people like polymerized garage floors. You might spend x amount of dollars on these items, but when you go to sell your home, likely you won't get the full x dollar amount back. I was wondering if this were true with solar panels. Cause unlike the other amenities, panels can actually affect your monthly cash flow depending on how much electricity you use and how much electricity costs.

In otherwords, do solar panels depreciate when you sell a home?

[PA]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Jan 10 2007, 05:01 PM) [snapback]373806[/snapback]</div>

In the midst of the real estate "soft landing" correction I was wondering what types of upgrades or amenities exist to entice buyers. Everyone has different tastes. Some people like inifinity pools, some people like granite counter tops, some people like polymerized garage floors. You might spend x amount of dollars on these items, but when you go to sell your home, likely you won't get the full x dollar amount back. I was wondering if this were true with solar panels. Cause unlike the other amenities, panels can actually affect your monthly cash flow depending on how much electricity you use and how much electricity costs.

In otherwords, do solar panels depreciate when you sell a home?
[/b]

I doubt you'll get back what you put into them. Otherwise every house would have them. Not everybody is going to want to have to keep up with the maintenance (whatever it might be, I don't know).

I've been casually thinking about adding some for a few years. Maybe I'll think about it some more. Of course, I'm not planning on selling any time soon.

[darelldd]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PA @ Jan 10 2007, 04:14 PM) [snapback]373856[/snapback]</div>

I doubt you'll get back what you put into them. Otherwise every house would have them. [/b]

Hmm. Interesting logic. I'm sure I won't get back what I put into my landscaping... yet every house around here does seem to have landscaping of some sort. I also won't get back what I put into my bath remodel, though all the homes have baths too. Hmmm. Now the differences - PV panels displace energy - a product that is INCREASING in price every year. I think a PV installation has a WAY better chance of paying you back than most other additions you consider.

Not everybody is going to want to have to keep up with the maintenance (whatever it might be, I don't know).[/b]

Yikes. Maintenance? There isn't any.

I've been casually thinking about adding some for a few years. Maybe I'll think about it some more. Of course, I'm not planning on selling any time soon.
[/b]

Please do! And learn a bit about them on your way.

Back to the OP... nobody has a crystal ball on this stuff. But certainly if you have two equal homes on the same block and one comes with pre-paid electricity for the next entire generation... I think it would look more attractive!

[tripp]

Bathrooms and Kitchens get you the best ROI. Pretty much all of the typical home improvement upgrades are 50% at best. Even things like newer windows which at least lower you heating/cooling bills. As Darell points out though, PV is a different beast. I would guess it would really improve the saleability of the property, though I don't know how the comps would work out. Most realtors probably have no clue on that one. Hell, most appraisers are probably complete clueless too. I think that perhaps the only kind of place that it would hurt curb appeal is in a really posh neighborhood where conspicuous consumption is king. Though, the array way assuage some guilt. The same goes for solar thermal but probably to a lesser degree.

[burritos]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jan 10 2007, 09:15 PM) [snapback]373892[/snapback]</div>

Back to the OP... nobody has a crystal ball on this stuff. But certainly if you have two equal homes on the same block and one comes with pre-paid electricity for the next entire generation... I think it would look more attractive!
[/b]

You would think that, but then you'd be giving too much credit to your average home buyer. Otherwise, there'd be solar panels on the majority of homes. The excuse is that there is too much upfront cost for solar panels, but that reasoning doesn't extend(as you say) to the upfront costs of granite tables, pools, etc.

2011 will be the true test as that is the year that builders are mandated to offer panels as option upgrades on all new construction in Ca.

Can you offer any experiences on sales of solar paneled homes?

[qbee42]

I would guess that most buyers will be put off by solar panels, and they will actually reduce the value of a house, much as swimming pools do. I like swimming pools, but most people consider them a liability and a waste of yard space. A lot will depend on the market; for example, in a warm climate, high-end neighborhood, a pool is a plus - not that you'll get your money back on the investment, but at least it won't be a liability. Same thing for solar panels; Northern California buyers will be a lot more receptive than those in Michigan or Wisconsin. As stated before, kitchens and bathrooms give the best return at around 50%. The very best return comes from removing an obvious problem or blemish; removing old underground fuel tanks for example.

Tom

[skruse]

We have a tract home that I have retrofitted. We have complete monthly natural gas and elecricity records back to 1989. The Energy Efficiency Index (EEI) is 1.0 or less (superior). Our mean monthly utility bill is less than $30 year round. House is extremely quiet. As a scientist and my wife a professional planner, we strive to model what we teach and do, including driving a Prius.

Ceiling insulation is R-100, ceramic tile floor, triple and quadruple pane windows, fully insulated garage (including roof) and garage door, storm liners on drapes, double dual pane sliding glass doors, caulking on every crack, gaskets behind every switch and outlet plate. Front porch is a dual pane glass vestibule. Two conventional natural gas water heaters are wrapped four times. All pipes are insulated. Pay back time to "break even" on energy improvements compared to surrounding neighbors: 2.5 years (more than 10 years ago).

The local newspaper did a two full page article on the house last August. The reporter used a bold quote in the title, "You can put money in the window one time, or you can throw money out the window every month." We had the house for sale from May to December. The realtor blew off the energy efficiency saying "no one cares about that stuff!" At open houses contractors came through and would flat out state that R-100 insulation is not possible (I would then open the attic access and show them the special materials - rigid foil-faced polystyrene foam - not very thick, but extremely insulating). Others would come through, look at the utility records, then ask if we actually lived in the house. The realtor said the only way to achieve our tract record of less than $30 month year round is that we "freeze in the dark in winter and perspire in the dark in summer."

I am a consultant to contractors who build Ecco block houses using SIPs, triple pane windows and photovoltaic systems (Alvis Brothers). Even the Alvis Brothers are amazed at what we achieve and how comfortably we live at such low cost. But, contractors, realtors and the general public are extreme skeptics and of the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality. "If it is too good to be true, it probably is."

We have taken our house off the market and now looking forward to building an Ecco block house in the next five years. But, when it comes time to sell our current house we need to work with a knowledgable an receptive realtor.

The best you can do is model what you speak. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make a horse drink. As energy costs continue to increase people will come around, but with extreme suspicion. Sacramento newspapers have been running articles on "Sacramento Without Oil," looking to how cities and people will function in the not too distant future.

So, in the mean time, model what you know and what you teach. You cannot force people to be frugal.

[tripp]

good stuff skruse. What precisely are the gaskets? Can you buy them at Home Depot and the like? Are they easy to install. I'm always looking from more low hanging fruit to pick.

The sacremento without oil stuff is bollocks. I read one of them and it completely failed to mention the fact that we don't need oil with the massive coal beds we have. Natually, a CTL future is the last thing we want. The environmental impacts would be horrible, but if we peak anytime seem you'll see CTL going gang busters. What people need to realize is that what we're doing is unsustainable, regardless of how much fossil fuel is left out there. It's not a shortage of hydrocarbons that's the problem, it's our us of them and many other aspects of society that's the issue.

Good stuff about the house. You were wise to bin that realtor. Why wouldn't they market that aspect? That's just silly.

[Godiva]

When I refinanced my house in the 90s with the idea of making home improvements I asked the appraiser about solar panels. He said not to bother because no one knew enough about them and they wouldn't improve the value of my home.

Here is is maybe 15 years later and it's the same thing. Now natural gas and electricity have gone up. People are concerned about gas and gas mileage. Global Warming is now accepted and people are starting to be concerned about what can be done and what, as individuals, they can do.

And the real estate sector is still clueless about the value and marketing of solar panels?

Well, I'll be getting a home equity loan this year to put in the Photo Voltaic panels I have been coveting for low, these many years. I might even put in on-demand water heater at the same time. Not that much more and why wait until this one dies. It's already past it's life expectency. As near as I can determine, this is the best year to put in the PV under California's new Million Solar Roofs.

[tripp]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jan 11 2007, 08:35 PM) [snapback]374530[/snapback]</div>

Well, I'll be getting a home equity loan this year to put in the Photo Voltaic panels I have been coveting for low, these many years. I might even put in on-demand water heater at the same time. Not that much more and why wait until this one dies. It's already past it's life expectency. As near as I can determine, this is the best year to put in the PV under California's new Million Solar Roofs.
[/b]

The real estate industry is clueless because they just don't encounter it much. Me mum, who's an agent here in CO, has had one person from Jersey ask about them. So she asked me and we pointed the person in the right direction. Other than that nobody. Of course, this is CO, not CA but then again, there are a helluva lot more people in CA and the vast majority of folks are clueless too. I bet the situation changes dramatically in the next five years.

What's the cost difference between an on demand water heater and going solar thermal? Look into solar water heating, it might make more sense for you. It might not, but in SoCal I bet you'll never have fuel costs again.