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| Environmental Discussion This is a discussion on Ethanol-blend auto emissions no greener than gasoline: study within the Environmental Discussion forums, part of the PriusChat Forums category; CBC News An unpublished federal report appears to undermine the belief that commercially available ethanol-blended fuel produces cleaner emissions than ... |
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| Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006
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My Car: 2006 Prius Package: #5 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0 | Quote:
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| Join Date: Apr 2007
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My Car: Package: Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0 | But ethanol does reduce the requirement for foreign oil. All these articles take one isolated concept and beat it to death, without considering the Big Picture. Question: does your Prius do you any good if you use it as an excuse to drive to places that you otherwise wouldn't go? "Green" is a very, very, very big picture. Sometimes you have to be dirty in one area to be overall green. |
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| Collecting Data on Nature Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Sacramento, CA.
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My Car: 2005 Prius Package: #4 Nominated 1 Time in 1 Post TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 15 | <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wiyosaya @ Apr 14 2007, 02:54 PM) [snapback]423361[/snapback]</div> Quote:
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| | #4 | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006
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My Car: 2006 Prius Package: #5 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0 | <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cc9150 @ Apr 14 2007, 06:04 PM) [snapback]423365[/snapback]</div> Quote:
I think that the function that articles like this serve is to bring the issues with alternative technologies like this to the forefront. Once they are there, then they can be discussed and brought together. I'd hate to see us develop an ethanol based economy only to find out that it is no better, overall, or even worse than what we have. | |
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| | #5 | |
| Collecting Data on Nature Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Sacramento, CA.
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My Car: 2005 Prius Package: #4 Nominated 1 Time in 1 Post TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 15 | <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wiyosaya @ Apr 14 2007, 03:39 PM) [snapback]423376[/snapback]</div> Quote:
Despite its critisim I think the Triple Bottom Line way of making decisions could serve us well. IE: Every decision should weigh in the effects on the human, environmental, and economic spheres before an agreement is made as well as how it will effect future generations. It is kind of a modernizd version or mixture of Jefferson's ideas for a new nation and that of the Iroquois Confederacy. "No generation can contract debts greater than may be paid during the course of its own existence" "In every deliberation we must consider the impact on the seventh generation"
__________________ 2005 Prius ![]() California Rangeland ConservationCoalition Ranchers, Environmentalists, And Agencies Working Together For The Benefit Of All. | |
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| | #6 | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007
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My Car: Package: Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0 | <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wiyosaya @ Apr 14 2007, 05:39 PM) [snapback]423376[/snapback]</div> Quote:
Do a google search on Ethanol production, you might be very surprised at what you find. I was. Ethanol produced from corn yields a 34% increase over what it takes to produce it, compared to gasoline which is in the negative column. 1.34:1 is the ratio for Ethanol production. OTOH, ethanol does not produce the same efficiency numbers that gasoline does, mainly due to the complexities of engines. A flex fuel engine designed to work with E85 or regular gasoline produces lower MPG numbers, but an engine designed to run purely on Ethanol will show significantly higher numbers. As far as emissions go, well, E85 still has 15% dino in it, so it cant be clean, but is cleaner than straight or 10% ethanol laced gasoline. Now for something to really boogle the mind, Bio Diesel made from soy beans yields a 202% increase of btu in to btu out. In addition Bio Diesel is much cleaner burning, has no harsh byproducts from manufacture, the only byproduct in the process of converting the oil to bio is Glycerin. The byproduct from the production of the oil itself is used as a feed source, so there is no waste at all. Bio Diesel is also non toxic, you could drink it, but it tastes like S**T Ultimately, Soybean crops have a higher yield to acre than corn, produces more BioD than corn can produce Ethanol, turnaround time is much shorter, and Bio D can be made with Waste Vegetable Oil as well. There is also technology further down the road that can yield a 318% output. If car manufacturers and EPA really want to do their part to clean the air, they should produce more diesel cars, and push for more Bio D plants and not Ethanol plants. Imagine what the prius would get with a diesel under the hood! If a VW TDI can get 42MPG without hybrid technology, then add the hybrid to that and see what it would get. You would be seeing easy 80 MPG numbers. BTW I forgot to mention, Bio D can run on any production diesel engine made today without any modifications, unlike Ethanol. | |
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| | #7 |
| Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it? Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Denver, CO
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My Car: 2005 Prius Package: #3 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 4 | yeah, but the TDI requires diesel which eats up more oil than gasoline (about 25% more). Diesel has a higher energy content that gasoline. That's part of the reason diesels get better MPG. The Atkinson cycle engine in the Prius offsets some of the advantages of the diesel (no pumping losses) so the advantage would be less than you think. If you look at the amount of oil consumed by a TDI instead of the MPG then it's less impressive. I agree that bio diesel is a step in the right direction. If we make it out of algae then we'd probably be able to make enough of the stuff. I'm not saying diesel isn't a part of the solution, it will be, but it's far, FAR from being a silver bullet. As for ethanol, it's really hard to tell. The fossil fuel balance contains a lot of coal and NG, not oil. One of the really energy intensive steps is seperating the water from the alcohol, which is done by turning the mix to steam and separating things out. This can be done in a variety of ways. The most common is using natural gas to make steam. However, there are two other ways that are in use that I know of. The first is using manure to create biogas which is then used to create steam. This reduces the fossil fuel input quite a bit. The second approach is in use now at an Ethanol plant in SW Minnesota. The plant is co-located next to a coal fired power plant (that was built in 1979) and it uses the low grade waste heat from the power plant to generate the steam that is needed. This puts a substantial dent in the fossil fuel inputs. I don't know how these approaches change the energy balance, but they obviously make the energy balance more positive.
__________________ Cheers, Tripp 2005 Silver Pkg 3, OEM Block Heater, Coastal Tech EV mod, BT Tech Chassis Stiffener, hell damned infernal reverse beep disabled Boulder Real Estate ![]() Howay the Toon!"Sometimes when you aim for the stars, you hit the moon." -- Ian Holloway |
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| | #8 | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Minnesota
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My Car: 2004 Prius Package: Pioneer #3 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 3 | <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ACD @ Apr 14 2007, 08:43 PM) [snapback]423446[/snapback]</div> Quote:
So yes, the diesel vehicle can deliver a SULEV rating. But none of them are actually available... only prototypes currently too expensive for competitive production with gas hybrids. | |
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| | #9 | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Northern Michigan
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My Car: 2006 Prius Package: #7 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 6 | <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ACD @ Apr 14 2007, 09:43 PM) [snapback]423446[/snapback]</div> Quote:
Tom | |
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| GoogleMeister, AKA bongokitty Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Chicago, IL
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My Car: 2007 Prius Package: #3 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 2 | Another article on this same/related topic: Warning is sounded on ethanol use The fuel would create more ground-level ozone than gasoline if used heavily, a study finds. Critics disagree on the overall risk. http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-et...-home-headlines I assume the full source study cited in the above story will appear online shortly at (not there as of this posting): http://pubs.acs.org/journals/esthag/index_news.html |
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