Asian "Brown Cloud" Accounts for much of Global Warming

[TimBikes]

Interesting study that suggests that pollution from Asia "appear[s] to cause as much warming as greenhouse gases". If accurate, it even further calls into question the efficacy of CO2 limitation strategies such as Kyoto. It would appear to be much more effective to implement strict pollution controls at Asian sources if one desires to limit anthropogenic warming.

[MarinJohn]

Disclaimer: I've never been to Europe
but: It seems like when ever I watch sporting events or travel programs on tv, from places like Greece, Turkey or other places on the east end of the Mediterranean Sea the air looks so brown and thick I have to wonder how that extreme air pollution plays into global warming, both by trapping GW gasses as well as by the brown color being able act like a heat sink. Same thing with the OP and Asia.

[tripp]

Well, if it's true it's actually good news because this kind of pollution is easier to solve than CO2 emissions. We've just got to encourage Asia to do it. As the Indian and Chinese economies grow and the average Joe starts earning more, there's going to be more demand for cleaner air. This is already a big deal in China where productivity is being lost because of pollution related sick days.

[scargi01]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Aug 7 2007, 11:00 AM) [snapback]491849[/snapback]</div>

Well, if it's true it's actually good news because this kind of pollution is easier to solve than CO2 emissions. We've just got to encourage Asia to do it. As the Indian and Chinese economies grow and the average Joe starts earning more, there's going to be more demand for cleaner air. This is already a big deal in China where productivity is being lost because of pollution related sick days.
[/b]

Agreed - we should be using any means possible to influence them to not pollute, whether it be economic, technical, whatever. Many third world countries will say to us "The U.S. built their economy during the Industrial revolution and didn't care about pollution, so who are you to tell us not to". They have a point, but that horse has left the barn and we can't get it back. Better to try and change the future instead of arguing about the past.

[SSimon]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(05_SilverPri @ Aug 7 2007, 11:33 AM) [snapback]491871[/snapback]</div>

Agreed - we should be using any means possible to influence them to not pollute, whether it be economic, technical, whatever. Many third world countries will say to us "The U.S. built their economy during the Industrial revolution and didn't care about pollution, so who are you to tell us not to". They have a point, but that horse has left the barn and we can't get it back. Better to try and change the future instead of arguing about the past.
[/b]

Seriously? You think we'll be effective at influencing these other countries at the very same time that we continue to be a main emitter concerning green house gases? The horse has left the barn, but we can do a great deal to clean up our act before imposing our will on other countries.

The best thing we can do for the globe and for our economy is to engage in the development of alternative energy means so that these mechanisms become cheaper and mass produced, allowing these other countries to afford and implement them.

[MegansPrius]

All in all, this is rather alarming, as aerosol particles had been assumed to have a cooling effect. You can read the entire source article (only about 1 page) at Nature . The article makes no sort of conclusion regarding the efficacy of limiting CO2 vs. pollution, but simply states:
These findings2 might seem to contradict the
general notion of aerosol particles as cooling
agents in the global climate system, but they
also emphasize the importance of resolving
how aerosol radiative forcing varies with altitude.
Here's hoping the budget for the Glory Mission satellite that could help resolve this question doesn't get cut again, as it has in the past.

[tripp]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Aug 7 2007, 11:05 AM) [snapback]491890[/snapback]</div>

Seriously? You think we'll be effective at influencing these other countries at the very same time that we continue to be a main emitter concerning green house gases? The horse has left the barn, but we can do a great deal to clean up our act before imposing our will on other countries.

The best thing we can do for the globe and for our economy is to engage in the development of alternative energy means so that these mechanisms become cheaper and mass produced, allowing these other countries to afford and implement them.
[/b]

GHG emissions and other pollution are not the same. Related, yes, but not the same. Have you seen pictures of the air in large cities in China? It's absolutely horrific. Several times worse than the dirtiest cities in the US. They shouldn't need any encouragement from us, christ, it's amazing that people there can function at all. China could do loads by simply cleaning up it's air using pollution control technology that's 20 years old. Same for India. That's where there's room for optimism here. It's not rocket science. This stuff should be pretty easy to implement and there's an excellent economic case (which includes public health) for doing it. This is a case where the whinging about the past can be met with "we've already developed the technology and you're benefiting from our RD, so use it and start breathing".

The other up side to this is that the results will arrive quickly, unlike GHGs where the reaction to change is considerably slower.

[SSimon]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Aug 7 2007, 03:09 PM) [snapback]491992[/snapback]</div>

Related, yes, but not the same.
[/b]

Pollutants are pollutants. They just amend our environment in different ways. I guess I just have a problem with the hypocrisy of it all. The US population thriving off of our wealth while made on the back of polluting industry, buying our huge gas guzzlers and setting up our living quarters in a frickin' house that 10 Chinese families could probably reside in rather comfortably...all the while pointing our finger our finger at them. It makes us all the more disgusting as a populace.

[Devil's Advocate]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Aug 7 2007, 01:36 PM) [snapback]492022[/snapback]</div>

Pollutants are pollutants. They just amend our environment in different ways. I guess I just have a problem with the hypocrisy of it all. The US population thriving off of our wealth while made on the back of polluting industry, buying our huge gas guzzlers and setting up our living quarters in a frickin' house that 10 Chinese families could probably reside in rather comfortably...all the while pointing our finger our finger at them. It makes us all the more disgusting as a populace.
[/b]

Well if letting erveryone else repeat our mistakes and learning nothing from them is what you are espousing, I'd really have to question whether you care about eenvironment or just hate America!

Trying to keep others from making them same errors can be construde as hypocisy, or you could cal a spade a spade (and hoe that has been flattended) and admit pollution is just as bad (and soon will be wrse) from the developing countries.

[SSimon]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Devil's Advocate @ Aug 7 2007, 04:07 PM) [snapback]492046[/snapback]</div>

Well if letting erveryone else repeat our mistakes and learning nothing from them is what you are espousing, I'd really have to question whether you care about eenvironment or just hate America!

Trying to keep others from making them same errors can be construde as hypocisy, or you could cal a spade a spade (and hoe that has been flattended) and admit pollution is just as bad (and soon will be wrse) from the developing countries.
[/b]

Trouble is, we haven't yet learned from our mistakes. We're continually repeating the same mistakes over and over again - destruction of wetlands, contamination of watersheds, irresponsible development planning, so how are we to teach other countries how to best care for their respective environment? I recognize the consequences if developing countries mirror our development as it relates to our environment. That is the exact reason that I disagree that we should dictate environmental responsibility and stewardship to the rest of the globe.