Do you believe in Jevons Paradox?

[tripp]

Originally Posted by stacked

For the most part yes. Take for instance refrigerators, they have gotten about twice as effecient in the last 50 years. But................Now they are twice as big, and lots of people have 2 of them, plus a freezer. My guess is a person who switches from a 20 mpg car to a Prius, likely drives alot more in the Prius, maybe n ot twice as much, but more.

But does that matter? Overall, they're still using less fuel than if they had stuck the the 20 MPG vehicle. If everybody switched to a prius, this country would use less fuel, wouldn't you agree?

[misslexi]

My other car is a 98 3/4 ton Chevy truck with a 454 cu.in. motor, used just to haul horses really. I think long and hard about every trip with that thing, figure 10 mpg when hauling, 15 when not hauling. The pump pain with the Chevy is acute, chronic and frequent.

But, if I need to move 5000 lbs from A to B, it does it with aplomb.

Even at $4.30/gallon, I really don't think of the Prius as causing me gas pains . I'm more inclined to be sloppy about consolidating trips with it to save fuel etc. Throw in a fine sounding stereo, Sirius and a warm, sunny day; there's still a lot of fun to be had driving around the Prius.

I guess if I looked at it in terms of fuel-miles equivalence, if I'm paying $4.30/gallon to fill the Chevy when it's being used for it's intended purpose, then really I'm paying $0.96/gallon to fill the Prius for it's intended purpose; that's about what I used to pay when I finished college back in 1978.

Given the cost of fuel, there's a mpg figure which is the "think about it" point when considering a trip. For me, at $4.30/gallon I think the figure is right around 25 mpg, anything less I think about it, anything more, not so much.

[burritos]

Originally Posted by tripp

But does that matter? Overall, they're still using less fuel than if they had stuck the the 20 MPG vehicle. If everybody switched to a prius, this country would use less fuel, wouldn't you agree?

Even if everyone drove a prius, then endpoint would be the same, just later.

[stacked]

Originally Posted by tripp

But does that matter? Overall, they're still using less fuel than if they had stuck the the 20 MPG vehicle. If everybody switched to a prius, this country would use less fuel, wouldn't you agree?

Maybe, maybe not. My gut feeling is we(as a country) will just use the car more.

Thepoint isn't to use less gas, the point is to use NO gas. At the very least no foreign gas.

[ranchogirl]

Originally Posted by burritos

Jevons paradox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



If you do. Does buying a prius really make a damn difference(environmentally that is) or is it just making us feel better?

One Prius, no. Lots of Priuses - probably not. A trend started by the Prius that could have our entire fleet of vehicles, all brands, be environmentally friendly in one way or another? You bet!

Eventually the nation - the world - the car manufacturers - will jump on the bandwagon and cars like the Prius will be become standard issue. We, my friends, are driving that bandwagon.

(And yeah, that makes me feel good)

[hiremichaelreid]

Originally Posted by burritos

Jevons paradox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If you do. Does buying a prius really make a damn difference(environmentally that is) or is it just making us feel better?

Doesn't matter to me. I chose Prius for economics, not environment. Environmental pollution reduction is a bonus, if true.

Here's a question: If you had a gas pig, instead of a Prius, would you drive less ? Perhaps yes, due to gas cost. So in effect you DO drive more because you own a Prius.

I'm considering road trips I wouldn't otherwise consider, but that's partly a "new cool car" phenomenon. But I might drive farther due to better mileage.

Has my carbon "footprint" been reduced ? Absolutely, IMO. I'm also excited enough about saving both money AND reducing pollution that I'm looking for other ways to do that, whether hydro-electric heat, bio-diesel, heat pumps, electric bikes etc.

Regardless, I'm sorry to say, we may be behind the 8-ball already, with Global Warming, Pollution and Peak Oil economic impacts. On the plus side, gas and oil prices may now be doing what decades of eco-attempts have failed to do.

[Wolfie52]

This thread has been dead a while, but I must add to it.

When I was looking to purchase a Prius, I found it extremely difficult to find a model with reasonable mileage commensurate with its age. I was not going to pay full price for a new model, and wanted to get a good (used) car that got good mileage. I almost got a car other than a Prius because the mileage was always so high (15-20K per year of age) compared to other cars (which average 12k per year). I was finally able to get a great deal on a low mileage Prius, of which I am glad, as I enjoy all the features and great mileage.

But this got me to thinking about Jevons paradox. Is the high mileage a result of people knowing they are using less fuel and causing less CO2 emissions, or because people who drive a lot will buy a car like the Prius? Were gas prices for all of the last decade like they were in '08 ($4+/gal) I would say the latter. But my feeling is having a Prius really does cause people to drive more, hence reinforcing the idea of Jevons paradox.

With Peak Oil most likely here, I still try to limit my driving so if there is a real shortage I will not have to change my habits. But I do sometimes get that feeling that it is OK to drive a bit more than I used to!

[icarus]

We drive way less now than we did (all else being equal) a few years ago. We plan and consolidate trips more, and go to town together rather than separately. We also have downsized my work truck from a 3/4 ton to a '82 vw caddy (rabbit) pick up.

We do still drive across the country coast to coast at least twice a year, for years we did it in a Suburban (11 mpg) or a Syncro VW Westy 18mpg, then downsized to a Subaru Outback (28 mpg) and now the Prius ~52 mpg. So we are using ~1/5 the gas then we were AND driving less over all.

Icarus

[The Electric Me]

Originally Posted by burritos

Jevons paradox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



If you do. Does buying a prius really make a damn difference(environmentally that is) or is it just making us feel better?

Yes, it makes a difference. Why? Because even if you believe and want to apply Jevons Paradox to Prius ownership, Prius Ownership is more than just being more efficient in using resources. That's all debatable. But remember the Prius was originally designed to create less emissions, for use in large cities. That does make a difference. Even if you want to debate that the creation of the battery and/or the efficiency of the gas engine under Jevons Paradox would negate any benefit, there is no arguing that Hybrids and Electrics produce less emissions than ICE engines alone.

So yes, I think it makes some people feel better, and yes, I think it can make a damn difference. But it more clearly makes a difference due to the less emissions formed than the more efficient gas consumption, but as owners of course you get to enjoy both benefits.

[hampdenwireless]

Originally Posted by qbee42

You need LEDs for that use.

Tom

I am an early adopter on LED lighting and for the most part I am disappointed. I have bought good LED's and cheap ones and they all dim greatly over a short time period. The specs say 3 year life and the price point makes it necessary for it to last that long to pay for the LED bulb. In the real world they last less then a year before they are too dim to use.

Where have they done the best? My flashlight for sure, its SUPER bright and the batteries last forever now. Due to its intermittent use, the LED bulb is very bright after two years.

As a note 1/4 of the Ikea LED lights have failed after just one year.

CFL's have worked for me and they do not fall under Jevons Paradox. Our electric usage is down 40% greatly due to CFL's and a set back thermostat.