Gas is still too cheap

[pewd]

I noted in todays news that the Saudi's are going to increase production, with the stated goal of reducing petroleum prices.

There is increasing noise in congress to 'do something'.

Maybe I'm just weird, but I don't think forcing the prices back down is a solution. Whether its today, this year, this decade, or sometime this millenium, sooner or later, we will run out of oil. Forcing the pricing back down will just defer the problem for some future generation to address.

Eventually, 100, 500, 1000 or however many years from now, we will run out of coal. We'll eventually cut down all the forests.

If we don't poison ourselves by burning up all this oil and coal, we will have to eventually switch to other energy sources. I don't agree with waiting to run out of oil before we develop alternatives.

It seems to me that trying to force the oil prices back down is not the way to go - if the prices stay high, or go higher, this will force us to get more serious about alternatives, before we totally destroy our planet with pollution.

I for one am glad to see $4 gas - it is spurring development of alternativies ; and causing many consumers to change their ways and start thinking about conservation. I think gas needs to go higher - I still see too many SUV's go flying past me on the highway at 80 mph. And yes, I used to be one of them - I've seen the light, the rest of the planet needs to also.

Higher gas prices will eventually kill the SUV. F150's are no longer the #1 seller. When a car with over 50 mpg is the #1 seller - then we've started down the right path. When an electric car is the #1 seller, then perhaps we will have succeeded in changing our collective mentality about consumption. When an electric car that plugs into a home solar or other alternative source for recharging is commonplace, then maybe we'll be looking at a cleaner planet.

Drilling offshore, oil sands, oil shale, etc., that justs causes us to burn up more and dump more carbon into an already polluted petrie dish. That is all this planet is - a giant petrie dish - and we're rapidly filling it up with waste. Opening up Alaska or offshore will just dump more carbon into the environment - why is this a good thing?

Or maybe its too late, and we're already doomed to drown in our own waste. So open up those offshore areas, drill in the Alaska wilderness, we have that oil, might as well burn it all up. The heck with future generations.

One interesting book that addresses alternative energy sources is 'Earth: The Sequel", by Fred Krupp. I've just finished reading it, fascinating book. I'd recommend this book to those of you reading this thread. It provokes a lot of thought.

I wonder if anyone else on the board has read it, and has comments?

regards,
-pewd

[patsparks]

You know I hate paying a lot for petrol but I agree with you. Petrol here is over $6.00 per US gallon.

High prices tame peoples driving style and make people and industry think about ways to cut consumption but people have short memories and unless the price keeps climbing they become accustomed to the price and forget it is expensive. Think back to 50 cents per gallon fuel and when the price broke $1.00 people were outraged. Without price escalation people become complacent about oil and energy.

Of course high oil prices make alternatives look more affordable so this is good.
I'd love to see a 50 cent per gallon levy on fuel which is channelled 100% into renewable energy, not studies but actual solar and wind or similar installations. I think with such a levy in place over 20 to 50 years will see all stationary energy obtained from renewable sources.

[kbe]

Astrophysicist Thomas Gold was a member of the National Academy of Sciences and Professor of Astronomy at Cornell. His areas of interest and expertise included biophysics, space engineering and geophysics. His 1999 book "The Deep, Hot Biosphere", which followed his 1992 paper of the same name pulblished in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, presents a very plausable case for the abiogenic origins of coal and oil from the actions heat, pressure and of extreme pressure-tolerant, heat-tolerant bacteria on vast quantities of gases present far down in the Earth's crust.

The thrust of his idea (actually put forth by Soviet scientists first)
is that there is a virtually limitless amount of hydrocarbons potentially available due to the stellar constituents that originally formed the Earth. And those hydrocarbons, when acted on by certain bacteria deep within the mantle of the Earth, formed and are still forming the coal and oil deposits we now tap into.

Well worth the read, and for me enjoyable since it is not so technical that it takes a science degree to understand his reasoning and explainations.

In other words, Gold claims the world's petroleum supply is not 'running out', it is just originating deeper than the usable deposits we are currently tapping into, and spent oil wells and coal deposits are often slowly replenishing from those vast sources below. This is totally contrary to the claims of those scientists insisting petroleum deposits are from ancient plant and animal sources.

[patsparks]

Originally Posted by kbe

Astrophysicist Thomas Gold was a member of the National Academy of Sciences and Professor of Astronomy at Cornell. His areas of interest and expertise included biophysics, space engineering and geophysics. His 1999 book "The Deep, Hot Biosphere", which followed his 1992 paper of the same name pulblished in the Proceedings ...
In other words, Gold claims the world's petroleum supply is not 'running out', it is just originating deeper than the usable deposits we are currently tapping into, and spent oil wells and coal deposits are often slowly replenishing from those vast sources below. This is totally contrary to the claims of those scientists insisting petroleum deposits are from ancient plant and animal sources.

So we can assume that the finite size earth has within it an infinite amount of hydrocarbons? I guess if believing that helps you sleep at night power be to you.

[kbe]

Originally Posted by patsparks

So we can assume that the finite size earth has within it an infinite amount of hydrocarbons? I guess if believing that helps you sleep at night power be to you.

I find it a stretch to equate 'virtually limitless' with 'infinite' as 'virtually' is a modifying word that is defined as "in essence or effect but not in fact", and alters the meaning of 'infinite' to correspond with the idiomatic two word description. --but I guess it depends on how one personally understands or interprets the definitions.

And actually do sleep quite well, neither believing nor disbelieving either theory of long chain hydrocarbon genesis until one a proven fact and not theory.

But I am amazed at the passion of the differing views and the comments elicited from both sides of the argument, ad hominem attacks issuing from both sides.

[icarus]

Regardless of how much of the stuff we can pump up and burn, until we get a handle on Co2 emissions, we should be reducing our usage!!! Cheaper oil only prolongs the coming agony! Get use to it, get over it, and move on to better energy!

Icarus

[patsparks]

I will reword what I said then to reflect the virtual state of affairs.
So we can assume that the virtually finite size earth has within it a virtually infinite amount of hydrocarbons? I guess if believing that helps you sleep at night power be to you.

[pewd]

Heres the attitude where I live:
Dallas County isn't putting brakes on fleet's gas guzzlers

Most of Texas is like this. A few more $ per gallon, and maybe the 9th largest city in the country will start being more environmentally friendly.

We only started curbside recycling about 2 years ago. Amazingly backwards in environmental issues around here.

[Godiva]

It won't matter. The cost of everything else is going to go way up, thus soaking up more of the family paycheck, so even if gas isn't as expensive as you'd like, it will still be expensive enough to make people conserve. Amtrak ridership is up. Locals are taking the trolley more.

I'm hoping for an assignment close enough that I can bike to work rather than drive. Bicycles for commuting rather than for pleasure are increasing. We already have curbside recycling and aggressive conservation programs for water and electricity.

[PriusSport]

Not enough going on in Washington to get to the bottom of why oil futures have increased 50% the past few months. You would think the Fed would be concerned.
My Sunday paper had no news stories on the subject today, which tells me the media isn't talking, either. Food prices have started to climb in the stores, and some think that's more about ethanol from corn than oil prices. No real discussion going on in the media about these issues.