Water heating options...anyone tried condensing water heater?

[hyo silver]

Originally Posted by icarus

...heating your house with light bulbs is not much worse than heating with resistance heating!...

I've heard that rabbits put out prodigious amounts of body heat, which can be particularly efficient if they're eating waste materials anyway. No idea how many it would take for a decent sized bunny-furnace, but you'd likely have too many well before next winter.

[tripp]

not if you eat some along the way.

[Shawn Clark]

Originally Posted by jayman

Here in Manitoba, we have the cheapest power rates in Canada, among the cheapest power rates in North America. Cost-wise, an electric hot water tank is a good bet. Brand new homes are built with electric furnaces, if that's any indication of how our power rates compare to natural gas.

Makes sense because of the hydro. But I'm pretty sure that your areas' builds are also tighter and better insulated than ours...

FYI my gas bill just for heating hot water is $45 a month

That's about what we have. $25/month for fixed charge, then the going rate for about 18 ccF of gas, plus taxes/franchise fees.

[jayman]

Originally Posted by Shawn Clark

But I'm pretty sure that your areas' builds are also tighter and better insulated than ours...

You pretty much have to use 2x6 walls, but roof still only requires R-40. Almost everybody blows in R-50 or more, it's dumb not to when its so easy to do during contruction

No requirement for tri-panes, but most builders either use them or strongly encourage them. I have tri-panes with dual Argon fill and dual Low E. Compared to a dual pane, huge difference in comfort and performance

Originally Posted by Shawn Clark

$25/month for fixed charge

For electricity, fixed charge is $6.85 a month. First 900 kwh are 6.25 cents a kwh, balance is 6.30 cents a kwh

For natural gas, the fixed charge has now shot up to $13 a month. They have different tiers of consumption, in addition they calculate primary, supplemental, transportation, and distribution charges separately. Also despite the fact the meter reads cubic feet, the calculation is based on cubic metres.

If I did the conversion correctly, I think it works out to around $14 a decatherm. Still reasonable compared to other areas

[jayman]

Originally Posted by hyo silver

I've heard that rabbits put out prodigious amounts of body heat,

Yeah I just *bet* you "heard" that ....

[jayman]

Screeching back to the OT, Manitoba Hydro is strongly encouraging new construction to use geothermal exchange heat pumps, with desuperheaters to assist hot water in winter, and primarily do hot water in summer

[Shawn Clark]

Originally Posted by jayman

You pretty much have to use 2x6 walls, but roof still only requires R-40. Almost everybody blows in R-50 or more, it's dumb not to when its so easy to do during contruction

No requirement for tri-panes, but most builders either use them or strongly encourage them. I have tri-panes with dual Argon fill and dual Low E. Compared to a dual pane, huge difference in comfort and performance.

Those are pretty substantial increased from what I see around here. 2x4 walls were the 90's norm (not sure what they put in new now.) Sloppy/slipshod insulating/sealing was the norm. 2x10 cathedral spacing is good for about R-30. Of course some of the other 2x6 flat attic areas only had R-11(????) or R-19 before I replaced/layered them. Also have some nice blown in to about R-30+ in sections existing, but need more to really complete the job in other sections.

I've been sealing, sealing, sealing. Yesterday I realized the bathroom vents were FUBAR while making my first Spring trip into the attic. Not only were they not sealed (now fixed) but two of three vent into the blown insulation (completely covered...couldn't find them without turning them on and digging). The butterfly damper was obstructed by insulation on one, and couldn't open. When I cleared around it my wife said, "Hey, was that you? The pitch changed." The other vents between floors...to nowhere and turned the wrong way.

So now I need to rig up a snorkel for the upper two, while trying to decide if I wan't to vent them to the roof. Despite their poor arrangement, they haven't produced any moisture damage to drywall or insulation so I have cheap options that appear appealing...

I can see where tripanes make sense up there. I would probably go that route here with a new installation.

For natural gas, the fixed charge has now shot up to $13 a month.

Ours has petitioned to go from $25/month to $30/month. I'm sure they will get it as I've never seen a utility fee petition fail.

U.S. conservatives like to go on about how govt. can't do anything right, and the free market is the answer, blah, blah, blah. But I'll tell you this, the best/least expensive utility service I've experienced came from one where the city managed gas, electric, water, garbage, and sewer. Those multiple $25/month fees were replaced by a single fee...pretty much kicking the "free market's" ass without even trying and in a single bill. Did I mention their incremental rates were also quite low? Contrast this with Houston area which was the worst: separate everything, nickel and dime you to death with a dozen separate bills and fixed charges. Houston was also the slowest and least responsive. You want to get hooked up? They'll be there in a month...WTF??? And the worst f****** postal service in the nation can be found in Houston, to a truly criminal degree compared to the rest of the country. Texans can be real assclowns when it comes to managing a subscription service business, they don't seem to comprehend how you make money off of getting the customer hooked up ASAP. (Spend the same amount on install, just do it sooner so that you start getting revenue sooner, pure profit for minimal effort, duh!)

[jayman]

Originally Posted by Shawn Clark

Sloppy/slipshod insulating/sealing was the norm.

Air leakage accounts for the majority of heat migration through a building envelope

At one time, vapor barrier sheets were just overlapped and left like that. It was assumed air wouldn't migrate between the overlap, which was a huge error.

Now, minimum code up here requires Tuck Tape on all the seams, with acoustic sealant at the bottom plate. The rim board/joist needs a foam isolation pad as a thermal break.

One side effect of making new homes air tight is that indoor air quality has gone downhill. Depending on jurisdiction, a central exhaust system is now put in, and most builders will automatically do it anyway.

With the ducting already hooked up for central exhaust, going the extra step to a heat recovery ventilator is a no brainer. I run my HRV on low 24x7. I also do this to minimise radon exposure

Another side effect to air tight homes is radon exposure. It's not code yet, but some builders are venting the sump pump pit out the attic, same as for a sewer vent.

Here is how I would do a home, conventional stick frame 2x6 walls with a basement: use insulated concrete forms for the basement walls. You automatically have a thermal break, and an R40 wall, when done

For the exterior walls, use that BASF Walltite blown polyurethane insulation. You can achieve R values 40% higher than batt. Eg, a 2x6 batt insulated wall would normally be around R19, you can increase that to R26 with Walltite

Of course, all ceiling fixtures and exterior wall receptacles in airtight boxes, which are tuck taped to the vapor barrier

Originally Posted by Shawn Clark

So now I need to rig up a snorkel for the upper two, while trying to decide if I wan't to vent them to the roof.

I think you're better off going out the side of the gable. Making sure you use duct insulation, with a slight downward pitch to the exterior hood. The downward pitch is to allow condensation to run out and away from the attic

In a climate like yours, venting out the roof can allow condensation to form in the vertical pipe. That condensation not only can freeze near the top, it will run back down into the fan

Originally Posted by Shawn Clark

Despite their poor arrangement, they haven't produced any moisture damage to drywall or insulation

At least none that you can see at this point ....

Originally Posted by Shawn Clark

the best/least expensive utility service I've experienced came from one where the city managed gas, electric, water, garbage, and sewer. Those multiple $25/month fees were replaced by a single fee...pretty much kicking the "free market's" ass without even trying and in a single bill.

Of course, they also operated as "not for profit" so only had to meet costs, not pay off shareholders and executives. Back in the late 1980's I briefly lived in a small town while doing a project. The town owned their own phone co, power co, etc

Phone service was $5 a month, plus long distance! Power was so reasonable, hardly anybody used natural gas. When I moved into the place, I went to the town hall to sign up for services. Then went for groceries, and when I got back half an hour later, the guy was patiently waiting for me to show up

Not many examples like that anymore. Locally, Manitoba Hydro appears to have jumped off a cliff. A new power dam up north will cost over 10 billion, but like a lot of Canadians, will then give away the power to the US at fire sale prices

They're also building the new office tower, with an estimated completion cost of $300 million. Oh, its LEEDs certified, whoop de doo.

Not sure why they needed a new office tower, the old building was fine. Does every lineman in Manitoba need an office suite now???

So mismanagement and abuse also happen in public sector enterprises too

[Shawn Clark]

Originally Posted by jayman

Another side effect to air tight homes is radon exposure. It's not code yet, but some builders are venting the sump pump pit out the attic, same as for a sewer vent.

There are some other recommendations I've seen for making sure that a passive radon vent is centrally placed. The very act of putting in a passive vent, and proper site prep should minimize the radon concerns as it will tend to vent out this way. Plus, already having a passive vent makes it easy to install a vacuum blower if needed.

This home is not going to be airtight unless I take off all the siding and redo it myself. I'm just addressing the major air leaks that I find. If it was airtight then I would have backdraft issues with the water heater and furnace drawing in the closed utility space. They are pulling their air from the floor joists/rimjoists.

At least none that you can see at this point

No, there is none. I've looked at it from above on both, right where they expel hot humid air into the attic in the insulation. Amazingly there wasn't any sign that the board had even gotten the least bit moist, although there was plenty of dust at the exhaust in the insulation.

Now in the downstairs bath there is water damage in the ceiling...but that's because the wax seal on the toilet above just failed. So I get to play plumber tonight.

[jayman]

Originally Posted by Shawn Clark

This home is not going to be airtight unless I take off all the siding and redo it myself.

In that case, make sure you put up that fanfold foamboard, then housewrap that is Tuck Taped at all the seams. Will make a big difference, especially on windy cold winter days

Originally Posted by Shawn Clark

the water heater and furnace drawing in the closed utility space. They are pulling their air from the floor joists/rimjoists.

It's code here to have a 6 inch insulated duct from outside, to feed the utility room. An electric hot water tank needs no ventilation, and a condensing direct vent natural gas furnace is also ok with no vent.

A danger in making a house airtight without considering combustion air needs, is a tragedy in the making.

Originally Posted by Shawn Clark

No, there is none.

Good, you got off lucky. I've seen older houses where they vented the bathroom van into the attic, most of the rafters and roof plywood was rotten

Originally Posted by Shawn Clark

the wax seal on the toilet above just failed.

I know you don't want to hear it, but I can't help myself:

S*** happens