Possible replacement fuel for internal combustion engines?

[triumph1]

Is it possible that in the future ICE's will be able to run on something other than a petroleum based fuel?

[eaglesight333]

Of course. Anything could be possible. I have seen reports about people who can make engines run on water. There is also bio-diesel/veg oil. There is even talk about using algae. Watch the Discovery channel or Planet Green and you will see various programs that will talk about new ways of powering an engine.

[dogfriend]

Rudolph Diesel originally designed his engine to run on peanut oil.

Rudolf Diesel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Rudolph_Diesel

[acdii]

You can run a VW Rabbit diesel on WVO, and the best part besides getting 50+ MPG on free waste oil, is the exhaust smells like french fries.

[icarus]

Before you get too far into the bio-fuels band wagon, consider this.

Denis Hayes, former under secretary of energy (and founder of "earthday") suggests (and I paraphrase the numbers from memory) the earth produces ~80 terra-watts of biomass from ALL sources every year. All the algae, all the grass, all the leaves and wood,,,all the biomass= ~80 terra-watts.

We burn in the US ~16 terra-watts per year. Can anyone seriously believe that we can get out of our energy hole by burning biofuel? Are you prepared to BURN ~20% of ALL the biomass that the earth creates each and every year?

IMHO, while bio can be a small scale bridge to the future, it is largely a bridge to nowhere.

Icarus

For attribution find KUOW.org and find a link to "the conversation" program and the links to interviews with Dennis Hayes.

[jayman]

We are throwing away a lot of potential biomass right now. Eg offal from food processing, all those farms with manure just thrown on to fields and runoff into streams/rivers, and let's not forget our city sewage treatment plants

We could get a *lot* of methane out of all that s*** we just flush away

[acdii]

Originally Posted by icarus

Before you get too far into the bio-fuels band wagon, consider this.

Denis Hayes, former under secretary of energy (and founder of "earthday") suggests (and I paraphrase the numbers from memory) the earth produces ~80 terra-watts of biomass from ALL sources every year. All the algae, all the grass, all the leaves and wood,,,all the biomass= ~80 terra-watts.

We burn in the US ~16 terra-watts per year. Can anyone seriously believe that we can get out of our energy hole by burning biofuel? Are you prepared to BURN ~20% of ALL the biomass that the earth creates each and every year?

IMHO, while bio can be a small scale bridge to the future, it is largely a bridge to nowhere.

Icarus

For attribution find KUOW.org and find a link to "the conversation" program and the links to interviews with Dennis Hayes.

Does that include being able to grow algae in the desert? Granted there are areas on this planet where life just cant live, but if technology can make it happen where it cant by nature, wouldn't that increase the amount of biomass that is grown? If you can grow 100 acres of algae in tubes in the desert, that is 100 acres more than is grown without, and doesn't take away from the overall amount but adds.

[icarus]

The short answer is,, I don't know. The longer answer is,, we burn a lot of terra-watts! It is pretty clear we need to change our behavior somewhat.

I know (intuitively) that if the world as presently constituted generates ~80 TW,, growing algae isn't going to be enough to make much of a dent,,, and then, at what (environmental) cost? I don't know.

An interesting side note. The price of corn went through the roof with the big recent push of biofuels. Driving through the midwest,,where 10% ethanol is mandated,,my mileage went down,,about 10% relative to 100% gasoline. In the net/net,, after all the processing is there any gain to ethanol fuel? I don't think so!

Icarus

[icarus]

Originally Posted by jayman

We are throwing away a lot of potential biomass right now. Eg offal from food processing, all those farms with manure just thrown on to fields and runoff into streams/rivers, and let's not forget our city sewage treatment plants

We could get a *lot* of methane out of all that s*** we just flush away

Jay,

While you are correct,, it is still a drop in the bucket. Methane capture from manure/landfills is a good idea for a variety of reasons,, it is a drop in the bucket.

On the other hand,, proper manure management reprocesses manure into fertilizer pretty efficiently. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

For example,, chipping trees out of the bush for pulp uses more of the biomass,, but leaves little or nothing to regenerate the soil. We do have a habit of over managing our environment.

Icarus

[qbee42]

Originally Posted by triumph1

Is it possible that in the future ICE's will be able to run on something other than a petroleum based fuel?

Present day ICEs can run on something other than petroleum based fuel. The real question is whether some other fuel will be economically available.

Tom