US Fossil Fuel Subsidies 6X Those for Renewables

richard schumacher · 09-19-2009, 11:05 AM

$72 billion versus $12 billion during 2002-2008. The article says "2.5X" including corn ethanol as a renewable, but it should not be because the net energy return is so low.
Green Car Congress: Study Finds that US Subsidies for Fossil Fuels Are Almost 2.5x Those for Renewables

hyo silver · 09-19-2009, 11:51 AM

Fossil fuels? Subsidised? Say it ain't so!

The truth is out there. Petroleum is the most expensive way to go. It's about time that fact was included in energy pricing.

hill · 09-19-2009, 02:29 PM

Well the good news is (call this 'blowing sunshine up your who ha') that this means there is 6X less subsidies wasted on hydrogen!

.

DaveinOlyWA · 09-19-2009, 02:29 PM

72 billion over 7 years when our oil bill was nearly 3 trillion? not even a drop in the bucket. besides, posting info on mistakes we made when gas was $1.30 a gallon has been a bit overdone.

lets move on from that. lets get stats on what we are doing now.

Most of the largest subsidies to fossil fuels were written into the US Tax Code as permanent provisions. By comparison, many subsidies for renewables are time-limited initiatives implemented through energy bills, with expiration dates that limit their usefulness to the renewables industry.

hopefully this clause is being worked on

hyo silver · 09-19-2009, 03:08 PM

What's the role of government again?

Is it to facilitate the transfer of wealth from the slaves to the corporations? Or is it "Of the people, by the people, for the people"?

Funny (not) how the political pendulum has swung so far right that good old Abe now sounds like a communist. He was talking about freedom, wasn't he? And equality? Are we there yet?

Shawn Clark · 09-19-2009, 06:21 PM

I don't disagree with the article, but it neglects to account for the Iraq war cost in any way.

Imagine what we could have done with the several trillion we've blown on Iraq (both for security, administering the coup de grace to Al Qaeda, and for reducing fossil fuel consumption.)

SageBrush · 09-19-2009, 08:52 PM

The oil industry related military costs are a lot bigger than just Iraq. Cost externalities related to pollution are also far from minor.

hyo silver · 09-19-2009, 09:58 PM

Ultimately, those so-called externalities are nothing less than Life itself. The logger makes money, the forestry company makes money, the government makes money, and Joe Average gets his house built. Yet somehow, the tree is not a party to the transaction. Clean air, water, and soil are not counted as the essentials of Life they really are - they're merely free, limitless raw materials. This may seem like a vague, esoteric point, but it's really the fatal flaw in our entire economic system.

09-19-2009, 11:05 AM	#1
richard schumacher Destination: Eschaton Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5,512 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: N/A Package: #6 Thanks: 99 Thanked 93 Times in 66 Posts Friends: 0	US Fossil Fuel Subsidies 6X Those for Renewables $72 billion versus $12 billion during 2002-2008. The article says "2.5X" including corn ethanol as a renewable, but it should not be because the net energy return is so low. Green Car Congress: Study Finds that US Subsidies for Fossil Fuels Are Almost 2.5x Those for Renewables

09-19-2009, 02:29 PM	#3
hill High Fiber Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: South OC So Cal & the Flathead Valley MT Posts: 3,878 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: Package: #9 Thanks: 15 Thanked 93 Times in 68 Posts Friends: 12	Re: US Fossil Fuel Subsidies 6X Those for Renewables Well the good news is (call this 'blowing sunshine up your who ha') that this means there is 6X less subsidies wasted on hydrogen! .

09-19-2009, 02:29 PM	#4
DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: South Puget Sound, WA Posts: 12,378 My Car: 2010 Prius Model: IV Package: Solar Roof Thanks: 24 Thanked 121 Times in 103 Posts Friends: 10	Re: US Fossil Fuel Subsidies 6X Those for Renewables 72 billion over 7 years when our oil bill was nearly 3 trillion? not even a drop in the bucket. besides, posting info on mistakes we made when gas was $1.30 a gallon has been a bit overdone. lets move on from that. lets get stats on what we are doing now. Most of the largest subsidies to fossil fuels were written into the US Tax Code as permanent provisions. By comparison, many subsidies for renewables are time-limited initiatives implemented through energy bills, with expiration dates that limit their usefulness to the renewables industry. hopefully this clause is being worked on __________________ My Blue 2010 : Last tank 541.9 @ 49.48 pump (56.7 MFD) 5.54 CPM, 21 MPH, Lifetime:5442.2 miles 56.5 MPG pump. (62.22 MFD) 4.72 CPM. Summer MPG 57.4 Winter: 49.5 My 2006 SPM: Last tank 376.6 miles @38.21 pump (40.8 MFD) 7.17 cpm winter mpg 49.64 summer mpg 53.41 lifetime: 42,563.5 miles 51.5 mpg pump (52.7 mpg MFD) 5.51 cpm My 2007 Zenn total "fuel cost" $166.58 on "about" 9599.7 miles. 1.74 cents per mile (granted i plug in for free at work!!) My Plate: DUALPWR (Dual Power)

09-19-2009, 06:21 PM	#6
Shawn Clark Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Midwest Posts: 2,107 My Car: 2008 Prius Model: Package: #2 Thanks: 117 Thanked 107 Times in 89 Posts Friends: 0	Re: US Fossil Fuel Subsidies 6X Those for Renewables I don't disagree with the article, but it neglects to account for the Iraq war cost in any way. Imagine what we could have done with the several trillion we've blown on Iraq (both for security, administering the coup de grace to Al Qaeda, and for reducing fossil fuel consumption.)

09-19-2009, 08:52 PM	#7
SageBrush Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,072 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: Package: #9 Thanks: 103 Thanked 59 Times in 43 Posts Friends: 4	Re: US Fossil Fuel Subsidies 6X Those for Renewables The oil industry related military costs are a lot bigger than just Iraq. Cost externalities related to pollution are also far from minor.

09-19-2009, 11:51 AM	#2
hyo silver awaaay Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 10,726 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: Package: Base Thanks: 47 Thanked 153 Times in 108 Posts Friends: 63	Fossil fuels? Subsidised? Say it ain't so! The truth is out there. Petroleum is the most expensive way to go. It's about time that fact was included in energy pricing.

09-19-2009, 03:08 PM	#5
hyo silver awaaay Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 10,726 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: Package: Base Thanks: 47 Thanked 153 Times in 108 Posts Friends: 63	What's the role of government again? Is it to facilitate the transfer of wealth from the slaves to the corporations? Or is it "Of the people, by the people, for the people"? Funny (not) how the political pendulum has swung so far right that good old Abe now sounds like a communist. He was talking about freedom, wasn't he? And equality? Are we there yet?

09-19-2009, 09:58 PM	#8
hyo silver awaaay Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 10,726 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: Package: Base Thanks: 47 Thanked 153 Times in 108 Posts Friends: 63	Ultimately, those so-called externalities are nothing less than Life itself. The logger makes money, the forestry company makes money, the government makes money, and Joe Average gets his house built. Yet somehow, the tree is not a party to the transaction. Clean air, water, and soil are not counted as the essentials of Life they really are - they're merely free, limitless raw materials. This may seem like a vague, esoteric point, but it's really the fatal flaw in our entire economic system.

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