Statisticians reject "global cooling" claim

[Philosophe]

Originally Posted by icarus

You may not like the Canadian system, or the British system, or the French system, or the German system, or the Japanese system, or nearly every other system in the G-20, but the FACT is that on average we in the US pay about twice as much both as a percentage of GDP an on a per capita basis than the rest of the G-8 or G-20.

The damn GOP is already blowing BS about "how expensive" it will be to pass ANYTHING! Most economists agree that the situation we have now is the most expensive option! Doing nothing, just allows the situation to get worse!

For the “non believers” of this (in the improbable case that you are reading this thread!), I refer you to the facts, based on international statistics (www.gapminder.org):

See this particular graph:

The US is currently ranked as the 40th country in regard to life expectancy (exactly the same as Cuba) although it is #1 for health expenditure per capita, far in front of every other country; about 2 times more than the average Western World country: 6700$/capita, around 3000$/capita in other G-20 countries; 3600$/capita for example in Canada.

If we (over)simplify things, you are getting a Cuba-quality global health system, at the cost of 2 times what the G-20 countries pays for their system. If you prefer to look at the infant mortality rate, Cuba even does a bit better than the US.

This is actually quite funny for anybody outside the US as you are currently debating whether or not you can afford a public health system, while the real question is: how can you afford such an inefficient system as the current one?

[icarus]

the sad fact is it is NOT funny! In fact the joke is on the American people! The ones that are laughing are the ones who stand to get rich(er) at the expense of those who have drank the coolaid poured forth by the GOP/Fox news and the right wing.

It used to astound me how American's could continually buy the right wings tempt that if we only voted for them, it would all be milk and honey! History has proven time and again that all we get is the dregs.
We keep buying the line that while we may not be rich now, if we just work harder we will be, and then we won't want to pay taxes!

After moving from astonishment, to sadness to resignation, I now am beginning to feel that we get (got) what we deserve. I was in a shopping mall the other day, for some mysterious reason. I was struck by the pure volume of junk for sale. This is a country that won't tax it self for anything, but will willingly buy ripped jeans for twice the price of conventional levi's! A couple of pairs of which would fund an average person's health care for a month.

The line that we just can't afford it is just plain BS. The reality is that single payer/robust public option would just take money out of CEO's pockets.

Icarus

[TimBikes]

[QUOTE=icarus;991993]
It used to astound me how American's could continually buy the right wings tempt that if we only voted for them, it would all be milk and honey! History has proven time and again that all we get is the dregs.
/QUOTE]

And I thought the programs LBJ ushered in with "great society" liberalism were supposed to deliver us to the land of milk and honey!

It seems to me that history has proven time and again the massive failure of big government.

[atfsi]

Originally Posted by icarus

The line that we just can't afford it is just plain BS. The reality is that single payer/robust public option would just take money out of CEO's pockets.

Icarus

That's it in a nutshell !

[Shawn Clark]

Originally Posted by Philosophe

This is actually quite funny for anybody outside the US as you are currently debating whether or not you can afford a public health system, while the real question is: how can you afford such an inefficient system as the current one?

Exactly what I've been saying.

Our Health care system is completely inefficient when cost and outcomes are measured.

[icarus]

[quote=TimBikes;992033]

Originally Posted by icarus

It used to astound me how American's could continually buy the right wings tempt that if we only voted for them, it would all be milk and honey! History has proven time and again that all we get is the dregs.
/QUOTE]

And I thought the programs LBJ ushered in with "great society" liberalism were supposed to deliver us to the land of milk and honey!

It seems to me that history has proven time and again the massive failure of big government.

Show me the child poverty numbers pre-and post LBJ. Show me the infant mortality numbers, show me the poverty numbers C 1969 Vs 2009. Show me the average tax burden for the same period. You show me all of this and it will reveal that on average, the middle class has lost ground (significantly so) in the period from Reagan-GWB! (Clinton years not excepted!)

I have no illusion that the Great Society was a cure all, but it was a era where there was some social justice, as opposed to now where we have none!

If you take all the advances to society over the last century or so, you can thank liberalism or progressiveism. 40 hour work week, social security, unemployment insurance, medicare, medicaid, VA benefits, headstart, running start, EPA (Yes it was Nixon who signed the legislation!) FDIC, SEC, nearly everything that makes us a more civilized society!

What to we have to thank the "conservatives" for? No rules capitalism ala 1880-1910's. The great depression and the failure of so many banks, trickle down economics, "deregulation" of banking, "deregulation" in general, even at the cost of society/environment/social justice, repeal of banking regs put in place in the '30 to prevent a repeat. (Guess how that worked!) Tax cuts for those that earn 100's if not 1000's of times as much as the average worker makes. The largest transfer of wealth from the lower classes to the richer classes in history. The "out sourcing" of labour to the cheapest source of labour. Soon enough, they will have all the money, and no one else will be able to buy the torn jeans that we now make off shore. (Can you imagine what the person in El Salvador, or Pakistan or China is thinking when they are ripping up perfectly good cloths to send to the States for people to wear once or twice and then to throw away when they fall out of fashion).

No, I will take liberalism/progressiveism anyday thank you very much. Is it/has it been perfect? Of course not, but the alternative has been perfectly awfull!

Icarus

[Shawn Clark]

Correcting the excerpt above from Tim's post so that it is accurate:

It seems to me that history has proven time and again the massive failure of conservative government.

See the Great Depression, the Great Recession, and of course "The Confederate States of America" for the end result of conservative "principles" run amok.

[blueumbrella]

Let's change the title of this tread to read: Statisticians reject "round earth" claim.

[TimBikes]

Originally Posted by Shawn Clark

Exactly what I've been saying.

Our Health care system is completely inefficient when cost and outcomes are measured.

You want to see inefficient? Here are $60 billion / year of our hard earned dollars being pissed away by medicaid/medicare:

60 Minutes, 10.25.09 - 60 Minutes - CBS News

However, I completely agree that there are huge inefficiencies in our current healthcare system and those should be addressed. But do you truly believe that 2000 pages of new regulations with 100+ new government bureaucracies will make things more efficient?

[Philosophe]

Originally Posted by TimBikes

You want to see inefficient? Here are $60 billion / year of our hard earned dollars being pissed away by medicaid/medicare:

60 Minutes, 10.25.09 - 60 Minutes - CBS News

However, I completely agree that there are huge inefficiencies in our current healthcare system and those should be addressed. But do you truly believe that 2000 pages of new regulations with 100+ new government bureaucracies will make things more efficient?

You probably need to flush the actual system and start over. But that won't happen with the medical/pharmaceutical industry lobies.