White Zombie

[daniel]

This is a great piece about the world's fastest 1/4-mile drag racer: an electric Datsun!

Video here.

[Rybold]

Awesome!!!

Thanks for the video link!

This is Super Sweet !!!!!!!!!!! I want one! Any estimates on how much those A123 Lithiums cost at retail price?

I'll bet he's burning out the motor, but hey, it's a race car and a sport, and it costs money. (I qualify my statement about the motor by the fact that I used to race electric RC cars as a kid. If we geared up the motors so that they were stressing and putting out huge torque and power, we could make the cars very fast (60mph), but motors would only last a month at that output and then they would only put out about 60% of that maximum) If his car was geared down a little for the street (lower gearing, higher motor RPMs, and slower acceleration, the motor would last for decades).

Daniel, you should see if you can find this guy's contact info and see if he can give you some pointers that can help you with your electric Carrera. If there's a single man on this planet to ask, he might very well be that man. Why? Because he made this car in his garage and it can turn a quarter mile in 11.5, and he also drives it on the street. How do I know he didn't just buy the car? Because when he took out the Lead-acid battery and put the A123 Lithium batter in, he did it in his garage (that would require some mathematical calculations to make sure the car's circuitry could handle the change in amps and volts). This is the man to ask (try everything you can to find out who he is and get his phone number). Tell him what you have and ask him if he can give you some advice. Good Luck.

Previously, I told you that my dream car is a Carrera PHEV. You asked me why I don't want all electric. My simple answer is that although I only drive about 15 miles per day, round trip to work, on the weekends I often drive well over 100 miles per day, and I like to enjoy my accelerator a little more (not burning rubber or 0-60s, but I like to drive with the flow and sometimes a little quicker). With your Carrera, if you drive it quicker, what type of range do you get? To get a 150 mile range, I would pretty much need a PHEV, right?

Something else to consider: I'll bet this guy does not have regen. Your Carrera probably does, right?

[daniel]

Rybold:

At current prices, enough LiFePO4 batteries for a 125 mile (100 miles to 80% DoD) range ought to cost you about $36,000, but to fit that many batteries into a 911 you'd have to remove the back seat. And I doubt you'd be able to fit both the gas engine and an electric motor in the car, with all their associated components. Mine has an 80 mile range (64 miles to 80% DoD) and there's no space left. OTOH, the back seats are just about useless, as you'd have to be a contortionist to use them, so taking them out is a reasonable idea. At just under 70 mph, my range to 80% DoD is around 50 miles. That's freeway driving, steady speed. If you were accelerating a lot (hard starts and stops) it would be less. Unlike lead batteries, which degrade when drawn below 50% DoD, LiFePO4 can safely be taken down to 80% DoD.

DoD = Depth of discharge.

I don't know the cost for A123 batteries. I don't know if they're available to the public (i.e. individuals). I don't remember if that guy was using A123 or LiFePO4.

Sounds like you know more about motors than I do. In an EV designed for normal driving the motor can last a long time. Probably longer than an ICE.

The guy that built the White Zombie is well-known in the EV community, and the guy that's going to fix my Porsche has met him. I don't know if they are friends or just acquaintances. However, I have spoken with the guy at the company that built my motor, and I know what needs to be done on my car. At this point it's just a matter of waiting for parts (they should come in a couple of weeks) and waiting for the local EV guy to have time to work on it, and then knocking on wood that everything works right.

My Porsche does not have regenerative braking. The original builder talked me out of it. There are very few hills around here, and the only times I push the available range are in freeway driving (in town there's no issue of range for me) and on the freeway regen serves no purpose.

If you were willing to give up the back seat, and spend about $48,000 on batteries, I think you could get a 150 mile range at 55 mph. (Or $54,000 if you wanted 150 miles to 80% DoD) I don't think you could fit enough batteries in a 911 to give you 150 miles to 80% DoD at 70 mph. But if ultra-capacitors ever become a reality, that could change.

Of course range decreases when you drive the car hard, but my feeling is that if your daily driving is well within your range, you can drive the car as hard as you want. If you drive long distances only occasionally, you can settle for gentle driving on those trips. You don't need to have everything all the time. At least I don't. I can settle for gentle driving when I want maximum range. (I do that with my Xebra!) It's well worth the compromise to kick the gasoline addiction. Too bad I cannot make my summer trips to Canada on electric! I'd sell the Prius. I'm guessing the White Zombie has a very short range, since it's for drag racing, and the track lets him plug in, and he can recharge between heats.

And yes, it is a home project. But I think he has a pretty good home shop.

[TonyPSchaefer]

It's embarrassing to watch (for the other cars, that is).

[daniel]

Originally Posted by TonyPSchaefer

It's embarrassing to watch (for the other cars, that is).

Not really. It's not a fair contest. The most powerful ICE cannot come close to a high-performance electric motor for torque. To make an ICE perform really well, you have to be an extremely experienced mechanic. Any tinkerer can make an electric motor leave gas cars in the dust. Then there's the driver: To make a gas car do its best you have to be lightning-fast on the clutch and shifter. With an EV the driver just steps on the pedal.

Not a fair contest at all.

Electricity rules!

[Rybold]

Originally Posted by daniel

Not really. It's not a fair contest. The most powerful ICE cannot come close to a high-performance electric motor for torque. To make an ICE perform really well, you have to be an extremely experienced mechanic. Any tinkerer can make an electric motor leave gas cars in the dust. Then there's the driver: To make a gas car do its best you have to be lightning-fast on the clutch and shifter. With an EV the driver just steps on the pedal.

Not a fair contest at all.

Electricity rules!

I certainly agree. When I was a kid we had an electric slot car track, and when we pulled the trigger, those cars would go from zero to top speed in about a tenth of a second. http://www.iwishihadthis.com/wp-cont...-car-track.jpg (random google image)

I like his analogy in the video to an electric power drill. If you have ever used an electric power drill, then you understand the torque they can put out if you buy a good drill and not a cheap one.

Daniel, thank you for all of the info in post#2. I appreciate it. Right now, I am planning to wait until 2012 and see what the auto manufacturers are going to offer. If I don't see someone headed in the direction of an electric or PHEV that can put out at least 250hp, I will probably begin working on my own car. I'm really hoping that a major manufacturer will make a PHEV that I can buy and then modify. It's entirely possible that I might buy a PHEV Prius in 2012 and then modify it to put out 200hp and add a bunch of after-market Li-Ions to increase the range. .... but then again, I could find a Carrera for sale that says "doesn't run, $2500. Come haul it away" and I could remove the engine, and do what white Zombie did, except I don't want to drag race. I just want a street car that can get 250-300hp and have a range of 100 miles. Maybe I can find a wrecked Prius and buy the powertrain, drop it in the Carrera, convert it to a PHEV and then modify it by adding a supplemental motor to boost the horsepower. That way I will have an EV for weekday commutes, and a PHEV for the weekends.

[daniel]

If you recall the video, what you want with an electric car is torque, not horsepower. Horsepower will get you hauling ability (if your car is heavy enough to provide sufficient traction) and will get you the power to overcome wind resistance (should you ever want to pull a parachute at 100 mph behind your car) but if what you want is a car that will out-accelerate the gas cars, don't even worry about horsepower. It's just not the thing that gets you that acceleration.

As for modifying a PHEV Prius for more power, the Prius is probably the worst choice. It is so finely tuned for efficiency and clean burning that you would be paying a lot of money for something that you'd lose as soon as you try to modify the engine. And the car might not even work once the engine no longer matches the computer programming.

As long as you have a gasoline engine, power and efficiency are mutually exclusive. Only with a pure EV can you have both. (e.g. the Tesla Roadster.) Adding a gas engine as a range extender to an EV will take up a lot of space and add a lot of weight. You are willing, apparently, to spend a lot of money on this project. Here's my suggestion: Buy or build a pure EV for your high-powered city driving, and use a Prius for your road trips. Nothing you can build will be as clean or as efficient as a Prius when the length of your trip requires gasoline, and no PHEV will have the raw torque you want in your city car.

[bedrock8x]

Disappointed, I thought it beats a top fueler.

[octavia]

I LOVE it!!!!
I'm not a race car fan but could be converted by that.

[Rybold]

Originally Posted by daniel

If you recall the video, what you want with an electric car is torque, not horsepower. Horsepower will get you hauling ability (if your car is heavy enough to provide sufficient traction) and will get you the power to overcome wind resistance (should you ever want to pull a parachute at 100 mph behind your car) but if what you want is a car that will out-accelerate the gas cars, don't even worry about horsepower. It's just not the thing that gets you that acceleration.

As for modifying a PHEV Prius for more power, the Prius is probably the worst choice. It is so finely tuned for efficiency and clean burning that you would be paying a lot of money for something that you'd lose as soon as you try to modify the engine. And the car might not even work once the engine no longer matches the computer programming.

As long as you have a gasoline engine, power and efficiency are mutually exclusive. Only with a pure EV can you have both. (e.g. the Tesla Roadster.) Adding a gas engine as a range extender to an EV will take up a lot of space and add a lot of weight. You are willing, apparently, to spend a lot of money on this project. Here's my suggestion: Buy or build a pure EV for your high-powered city driving, and use a Prius for your road trips. Nothing you can build will be as clean or as efficient as a Prius when the length of your trip requires gasoline, and no PHEV will have the raw torque you want in your city car.

I definitely know that torque is the key when it comes to electric. I used power just as a comparison for conventional gasoline cars.

Thanks for the advice about the Prius. I'll think about it more.