Exploding Grandma's

[dbermanmd]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Dec 4 2006, 02:48 PM) [snapback]357516[/snapback]</div>

The core issue goes well beyone that, it's a religious issue...

issue...

I say attempt the fix at the religious core....


[/b]

You could be right - almost like the current conflict with Islamoterrorism. A battle of ideologies.... And someone gets a gold star.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Dec 4 2006, 02:49 PM) [snapback]357517[/snapback]</div>

Doberman, you're an idiot whose grasp of the English language is limited to repeating whatever stupid party line you listen to. it's called reading for comprehension, try it sometime.

He was acknowledging that the UN and Britain were responsible for the situation, for giving the land to the Jews. There was nothing in it about minimizing their actions. He was merely asking why they had the right to do that. try answering the question, not picking away at something that only exists in your mind.
[/b]

name calling I thought was against the by-laws of the bb. It also demonstrates a lack of intelligent responses to the questions at hand.

why do you think that Jews did not have a right to that land?

And what were you going to do if anything about the consequences of the Holocost?????

[dragonfly]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Dec 4 2006, 12:42 PM) [snapback]357547[/snapback]</div>

name calling I thought was against the by-laws of the bb. It also demonstrates a lack of intelligent responses to the questions at hand.
[/b]

ROFL!!!!

You want to tell us about the by-laws of the bb dbermanmd? What a joke!

[dbermanmd]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Dec 4 2006, 02:57 PM) [snapback]357523[/snapback]</div>

Thanks Daniel and Eagle. It leaves a lot to think about.

db, I didn't answer your questions because you didn't answer mine.
[/b]

And so it goes, again, and again, hiding, obfuscating. It is really ok to tell the truth.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Dec 4 2006, 03:53 PM) [snapback]357553[/snapback]</div>

ROFL!!!!

You want to tell us about the by-laws of the bb dbermanmd? What a joke!
[/b]

Name calling is ok? I just want to know. I think you can answer this question if you want to - can you?

[dragonfly]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Dec 4 2006, 01:03 PM) [snapback]357560[/snapback]</div>

And so it goes, again, and again, hiding, obfuscating. It is really ok to tell the truth.
[/b]

You're really funny today. My stomach hurts from laughing!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Dec 4 2006, 01:04 PM) [snapback]357560[/snapback]</div>

Name calling is ok? I just want to know. I think you can answer this question if you want to - can you?
[/b]

Again, I'm not answering any questions you ask me until you answer the ones I asked you.

[dbermanmd]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Dec 4 2006, 03:22 PM) [snapback]357538[/snapback]</div>

Basically, the problem is this:

Palestinians: He hit me!
Israel: Well, he hit me first!
Palestinians: No, HE hit ME first!
Israel: Oh, yeah? Well, that's because HE hit ME!

What they both need is for someone to step in and give them both a time-out, and possibly take away their Playstation privileges for a week.
[/b]

Interesting but completely flawed reasoning.

Maybe the Palestinians need the time-out considering Israel just ponied up the entire Gaza Strip and got war in return?

[daniel]

The quote button did not work. So..
Me:

1. Sharing the land does not mean giving a small amount of undesirable land to the other side. Sharing the land means one state shared by both peoples. Nobody seems to like the one-state solution, but it's the only way we'll ever see peace there.

2. In this conflict, far more Palestinians than Israelis have been killed. Mostly civilians on both sides. I think the ratio is something like ten to one, but I am not sure of the figure.

3. In the tit-for-tat violence it is no longer possible to distinguish provocation from retialiation. But it was the Stern gang that initiated the use of terrorist bombings in the modern struggle for control of what is now Israel. Jews and Palestinians were living together in the region. The Stern gang began murdering Palestinians to drive them out.[/b]

dbermanmd:

1. wrong - there would be no Israel - unless of course that is your goal.
2. of what import is that?
3. Why do you not travel further back in history? Interesting.[/b]

Why must there be a religious nation where people of other religions are second-class citizens? The goal of any civilized person should be that every person has a place in which to live peacefully and with full rights. In my opinion, in the Middle east, this can only be achieved by a one-state solution, in which both Jews and Palestinians live equally, with a separation of religion from government. Clearly, the U.S-style winner-takes-all "democracy" would not be suitable. A proportional democracy, of the type that Israel grants its own people, would work better. Thus the basic structure of government need not be changed. Just get rid of the laws that favor one religion over another, and perhaps prohibit rabbis and mullahs from occupying government posts.

My second point was meant to counter your assertion that the Palestinians are more brutal than Israel.

You want to go farther back than the Ottoman Empire? Perhaps you want to use the Biblical argument that "god gave it to us"? I've already answered this point. See my earlier posting.

In the end, we live in the present, and any solution must be in the present. I have offered what I see as the only solution: an end to the ethic of vengeance, and a one-state solution, where both peoples would have a home. The added benefit (besides peace!) would be the strongest nation in the region. The cost is that both sides would have to give up their hatred. I guess it's asking too much: You can have peace and prosperity but you have to give up your hatred. On both sides they'd rather have their hate than peace and prosperity for themselves and theior grandchildren.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Dec 4 2006, 12:42 PM) [snapback]357547[/snapback]</div>

And what were you going to do if anything about the consequences of the Holocost?????
[/b]

Give us Germany, or a goodly chunk of it. Nice arable land, instead of a worthless piece of desert with nothing but religious symbolism.

And of course the Romani people should have gotten a goodly chunk of Germany too. Nobody suggested compensating them. Are a mere two million dead insufficient to be considered a holocaust?

[eagle33199]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Dec 4 2006, 02:30 PM) [snapback]357539[/snapback]</div>

My family has been there for over 200 years and they paid for the land they bought from willing Arab sellers.
[/b]

My most sincere apologies if my statement was taken in offense... Obviously, there were exceptions, i was merely basing it on the more recent history and referring to the immigration in the 1920's which appears to have led to the current conflict.

And to answer your two questions, Doberman:

why do you think that Jews did not have a right to that land?

And what were you going to do if anything about the consequences of the Holocost?????[/b]

I never said the Jews didn't have a right to the land. putting words in my mouth again, and reinforcing what i said earlier. good argument. Instead, i gave a brief history of the area and asked some hard questions that i didn't have answers to.

Consequences of the Holocost... lets see... i wasn't even alive then, so i was going to do precisely what i had done for the millions of years prior to that: absolutely nothing. But i see that you would prefer to take a people that were displaced from their homes by a fascist regime intent in exterminating their people and ship them all off into an isolated part of the world where you wouldn't have to see or interact with them. Sounds to me like you're just one step away from Hitler, my friend.

[dbermanmd]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Dec 4 2006, 04:14 PM) [snapback]357566[/snapback]</div>

The quote button did not work. So..
Me:

dbermanmd:

Why must there be a religious nation where people of other religions are second-class citizens? The goal of any civilized person should be that every person has a place in which to live peacefully and with full rights. In my opinion, in the Middle east, this can only be achieved by a one-state solution, in which both Jews and Palestinians live equally, with a separation of religion from government. Clearly, the U.S-style winner-takes-all "democracy" would not be suitable. A proportional democracy, of the type that Israel grants its own people, would work better. Thus the basic structure of government need not be changed. Just get rid of the laws that favor one religion over another, and perhaps prohibit rabbis and mullahs from occupying government posts.

My second point was meant to counter your assertion that the Palestinians are more brutal than Israel.

You want to go farther back than the Ottoman Empire? Perhaps you want to use the Biblical argument that "god gave it to us"? I've already answered this point. See my earlier posting.

In the end, we live in the present, and any solution must be in the present. I have offered what I see as the only solution: an end to the ethic of vengeance, and a one-state solution, where both peoples would have a home. The added benefit (besides peace!) would be the strongest nation in the region. The cost is that both sides would have to give up their hatred. I guess it's asking too much: You can have peace and prosperity but you have to give up your hatred. On both sides they'd rather have their hate than peace and prosperity for themselves and theior grandchildren.
Give us Germany, or a goodly chunk of it. Nice arable land, instead of a worthless piece of desert with nothing but religious symbolism.

And of course the Romani people should have gotten a goodly chunk of Germany too. Nobody suggested compensating them. Are a mere two million dead insufficient to be considered a holocaust?
[/b]

Last I checked the 20% of Israel that are Arab/Muslim/Catholic have a vote and rights and have access to a fair and balanced judiciary. How many Jews in the PA can vote - much less be as free as their brothers are in Israel?

What Israeli laws favor Jews over non-Jews??

You obviously favor the Iraq invasion to get rid of Saddam - reading your first paragraph

Your second point remains pointless.

Did not realize you answered the who was there first argument - missed it - must have been earth shaking or self-serving.

Do you think the Arabs will tolerate the Jews in a single state solution?? If so, provide me one example of a Arab country you would follow in terms of its government that provides such?

Israel would rather have hatred. Lets see. In the six years since Israel WITHDREW from Lebanon it build a world class economy and education system and health care system and what did the arabs build - a military. Are you that naive? Still?

[dragonfly]

What happened to the homes the Jews lived in before the Holocaust?

[eagle33199]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Dec 4 2006, 03:26 PM) [snapback]357580[/snapback]</div>

Israel would rather have hatred. Lets see. In the six years since Israel WITHDREW from Lebanon it build a world class economy and education system and health care system and what did the arabs build - a military. Are you that naive? Still?
[/b]

LOL do you even know what you're talking about?

Israel's military consists of a unified Israel Defense Forces (IDF), known in Hebrew by the acronym Tzahal (צה"ל). Historically, there have been no separate Israeli military services. The Navy and Air Force are subordinate to the Army. There are other paramilitary agencies that deal with different aspects of Israel's security (such as Magav and Shin Bet). The IDF was based on paramilitary underground armies, chiefly Haganah.
Emblem of the IDF.
Enlarge
Emblem of the IDF.

The IDF is one of the best funded military forces in the Middle East and ranks among the most battle-trained armed forces in the world, having been involved in five major wars and numerous border conflicts. In terms of personnel, the IDF's main resource is the training quality of its soldiers and expert institutions, rather than sheer numbers of soldiers. It also relies heavily on high-tech weapons systems, some developed and manufactured in Israel for its specific needs, and others imported (largely from the United States).

Most Israelis (males and females) are drafted into the military at age 18.[34] Also immigrants sometimes volunteer to join the IDF. An exception are Israeli Arabs, most of whom are not conscripted because of a possible conflict of interests, due to the possibility of war with neighboring Arab states. Other exceptions are those who cannot serve because of injury or disability, women who declare themselves married, or those who are religiously observant. Compulsory service is three years for men, and two years for women. Circassians and Bedouin also actively enlist in the IDF. Since 1956, Druze men have been conscripted in the same way as Jewish men, at the request of the Druze community. Men studying full-time in religious institutions can get a deferment from conscription. Most Haredi Jews extend these deferments until they are too old to be conscripted, a practice that has fueled much controversy in Israel.

While Israeli Arabs are not conscripted, they are allowed to enlist voluntarily. This is the same policy as the Bedouin and many non-Jewish citizens of Israel.

Following compulsory service, Israeli men become part of the IDF reserve forces, and are usually required to serve several weeks every year as reservists until their forties.[/b]

Yes, Israel is completely and totally dedicated to peace, their world class, best funded in the area military is clearly not a factor in your arguments.