Hot fuel not a hot deal

[hycamguy07]

I was listening to the radio today and the jockey was talking about hot & cold fuel....
This is what I found so far..

Whether you’re pumping diesel or gasoline, pretty much expect to get what you pay for. You do – only if the fuel coming out of that nozzle is 60 degrees. Anything warmer than that, and you’re getting cheated.
Fluids expand as they warm and contract when they cool. Diesel and gasoline are no exception. How much? Estimates vary, on average from 1 percent to 3 percent just for diesel, depending on how hot it is and whom you ask.
So if that gasoline or diesel you just pumped into your car or big rig is hotter than 60 degrees, your gallon just got “bigger.”

http://www.landlinemag.com/Archives/2005/M...ws/hot_fuel.htm[/b]

Well I thought I had heard everything until now!

The allegation is contained in a lawsuit filed against 17 oil and gas companies operating stations in seven of the country's warmest states, including Florida, Arizona, Texas and California.

The current standard, agreed on by regulators and the industry, is that each gallon of gasoline should be sold at 60 degrees Fahrenheit. If gasoline heats above this temperature, it expands by volume but not by energy content, meaning consumers would be getting less energy per gallon. An investigation by the Kansas City Star estimated that hot fuel costs consumers $2.3 billion a year.

Many of the plaintiffs in the lawsuit are independent truck drivers, who say they have been hit especially hard by hot fuel costs. "We joined this lawsuit because it's hard enough to make a living out here," said Becky Rushing, co-operator of a trucking firm. According to Rushing, "We see truck drivers every day who have to give up their trucks and get off the road without these oil companies taking advantage of us."

The lawsuit names 17 oil and gas companies and seeks monetary restitution as well as the installation of temperature-adjusted fuel pumps by retailers.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/1...ists_were_.html[/b]

This is the Data site:

Hot Fuel Examination Facility (HFEF)
http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/designs/ifr/hfef.html

"Hot Fuel" Bilks Consumers, Lawsuit Charges
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0.../hot_fuel.html[/b]

Intresting, What do the scientific minds here on PC think/say about this??

[efusco]

I say sue the frikin' sun...that's the thing making it hot here. Illegally warming our gasoline so we only get 99% of our gallon instead of the full 100%.

Better yet, let's make everyone in the Northern states pay a subsidy to the southern states...since they get 'cold gas' during ~1/2 the year and thus are getting 101% of a gallon they should reimburse the southerners for this horrendous financial loss each of them is taking.

Good gosh, b/w the variability of each pump, temp of fuel coming out of the underground tanks, spillage, etc....the cost and/or gain to any individual consumer is a drop in the bucket (or gas tank)...how stupid to create a law suit over something like this.

[TonyPSchaefer]

I think Evan's right in filing a class-action lawsuit. But he's looking the wrong way.

Clearly, as the Earth's molten-iron core rotates, it's heating the gasoline. The Earth's core, of course, is being fed by the Troglodytes living between the mantle and the Outer Core. So perhaps they are the ones we should target.

Clearly, regardless of who we go after, a lawsuit is the American way!

With all that silliness aside, how do the retailers heat the fuel? How much energy is put into heating a full holding tank of gasoline?

[Stev0]

I say sue the tobacco lobby. Yeah, they have nothing to do with it, but they have so many lawsuits already they won't notice another one.

[Alnilam]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TonyPSchaefer @ Dec 27 2006, 09:50 AM) [snapback]367213[/snapback]</div>

The Earth's core, of course, is being fed by the Troglodytes living between the mantle and the Outer Core. So perhaps they are the ones we should target.

Clearly, regardless of who we go after, a lawsuit is the American way!

With all that silliness aside, how do the retailers heat the fuel? How much energy is put into heating a full holding tank of gasoline?
[/b]

I'm a scientific type (astronomer) and I'd like to join the suit, especially against this administration that is allowing global warming, the obvious culprit. (Did we have any lawsuits before Bush's administration? Proves my point!) Pretty soon I'll have to wear asbestos gloves at the pump.

I'm really against suing the frikin' sun, however. It's my main stock in trade and I just can't stand another hit right now. Bad enough I lost Pluto!

As a Californian, in the heat of things, so to speak, I take a cold compress to Costco each time I fill up and wrap it around the hose. I manage to get a little over 12 gallons into my Prius with some work. (Be ready to slap the gas cap on real fast if you try this.)

(And please watch the name-calling on PriusChat! Troglodytes have feelings too. You want another law suit? We have Moderators to keep this sort of thing down.)

[Mystery Squid]

I don't see anything ridiculous about this. Let's reverse the tables for a moment, do you think, even for a moment, if there was some way the oil companies could come up with a new way to "game" more cash out of what they manufacture, no matter how incredulous the mechanism, they wouldn't?

Just think of W.K.T.E.C... More has been lost over a lot less...

[Alnilam]

I've pretty well managed to put my previous life as a TWA pilot behind me but this got me to thinking. On my L-1011 I ordered fuel by the pound, not the gallon. The airplane gauges registered pounds burned per hour.

This was because of fuel density. Depending on the temperature, 10,000 pounds of fuel took up more or less space in the tanks. This was not normally something I had to think about too much because I seldom ever took off with full tanks. (You burn fuel to carry fuel, a waste.) But an individual tank might be full and any excess I required had to go in another. Fuel density would limit the number of pounds I could put on board but it rarely was a problem because we had so many tanks.

In our car, we ALWAYS order a full tank. In the same way, the number of gallons we get weighs something different depending on the temp. It's the pounds, the "mass" of the fuel, that counts. E = mc^2.

In a 10 gallon tank it would be interesting to see the difference in pounds delivered in winter vs. summer. For us, the whole thing is probably a wash but a professional truck driver might see some important differences. As Sen. Proxmire once famously said about the budget, "A billion here, a billion there... Pretty soon we're talking about real money." (I think he said "million" but that isn't real money anymore.)

So, the solution for this is to sell gasoline by the pound, I think. This would require a density sensor that varied with the temperature be put on each fuel pump. This alone would probably send the cost of gas to astronomical levels.

Give the truckers a subsidy and forget all this. It's cheaper.

[ShellyT]

Sales of large wholesale volumes take temperature into account, and Hawaii and Canada require gas prices to be adjusted for temp at the pump.

[Godiva]

Well, the solution is to gas up when it's cold. Even in California it gets into the 60s or lower at night. So you just have to find a station where you can gas up at 3am. Should be pretty cold then. Of course that station will probably charge more for being open 24 hours so in the end it will be a wash.

[efusco]

The solution here is obvious.
A "simple" in-line device attached to each pump that detects the temperture of the gasoline before it hits the volume meter. It would then either heat or cool the gas to within =/- -.5 degrees F of 60 degrees. Such a device should cost no more than $15,000 per pump and take no more than 10 years to install nationwide.