Is paying Income tax Unconstitutional???

[dbermanmd]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Mar 5 2007, 01:43 PM) [snapback]400444[/snapback]</div>

Are any of us that brave and rich?
[/b]

common ground -

you see i see the irs and an example of too much governmental power - of social engineering gone wild - of using the limitless power of government that our foudning fathers warned us of being used against the people. almost what socialized medicine will look like.

no, i would not touch the irs - they are God-like. i pay an extra 0.5% to 1% on top of my taxes to be safe.

[F8L]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Mar 5 2007, 11:01 AM) [snapback]400460[/snapback]</div>

common ground -

you see i see the irs and an example of too much governmental power - of social engineering gone wild - of using the limitless power of government that our foudning fathers warned us of being used against the people. almost what socialized medicine will look like.

no, i would not touch the irs - they are God-like. i pay an extra 0.5% to 1% on top of my taxes to be safe.
[/b]

I agree with you completely here. Common ground indeed. Please realize that in my environmental based concerns I hold this same opinion that it should not be the governments job to make laws and regulations to reward or punish global stewardship, it should be something we just do because it is right. Unfortunately not enough people understand the complete network and context in which they are a part of and such laws become neccessary especially with regards to the multinational corps who exploit our resources and our health for profit. No conspiracy theories here, just facts.

[daniel]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Mar 5 2007, 10:38 AM) [snapback]400440[/snapback]</div>

The question is will you defend him in court? Try it, don't pay your taxes and test the Constitutionality of it
[/b]

I cannot defend him in court because I am not a lawyer. And as I said (but of course you never actually read my posts) the tax is constitutional because the Court says it is. Case decided.

There are people who defy the IRS, and different people have different ways of going about it.

1. Some people (like a man I once knew) file a true and correct tax form, but refuse to pay. They cannot jail you for refusing to pay as long as you file a correct tax form. They attach his wages or property or bank account and take his money, along with added fines, but he took pleasure in the belief (which I can neither confirm nor deny) that it cost them more to take his money than what they actually got. It cost him more, but that was a price he was willing to pay. And he took pleasure in taking a stand.

2. Some people intentionally live below the taxable level. Not easy in our gimme society. They thereby give no financial support to the government, and they are breaking no law. I know a couple who lives this way. In a summer, working as skilled carpenters, they make enough to live on for the year. They have a lot of free time, very few possessions, and the satisfaction of not paying for war.

3. Some people openly refuse to file a tax form. They can, and sometimes do, go to prison. I do not know anyone personally who does this, but I know of such people.

4. Some people cheat on their tax forms. They risk fines, prison, or both, if caught, but if they are careful, can often get away with it. I'm sure we all know people who do this. I do not know specific people doing it, but it is so common that I imagine some of my friends or acquaintances do. I bet some of your friends do. I bet some members of PC do.

My tax forms are incomprehensible to me. I use a reputable CPA who I think would not cheat, and I specifically instruct him not to cheat. I dislike paying taxes, but my income is large enough for me. I don't need the extra money cheating might bring. I do have sizeable holdings in municipal bond mutual funds, which are tax-free, and that reduces my tax obligation a bit.

[dragonfly]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 5 2007, 12:21 PM) [snapback]400504[/snapback]</div>

3. Some people openly refuse to file a tax form. They can, and sometimes do, go to prison. I do not know anyone personally who does this, but I know of such people.
[/b]

I knew somebody who did this. He said that if you don't file a tax return, you don't have to pay taxes, and he really believed it. I wonder where he is now...

[daniel]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Mar 5 2007, 05:09 PM) [snapback]400624[/snapback]</div>

I knew somebody who did this. He said that if you don't file a tax return, you don't have to pay taxes, and he really believed it. I wonder where he is now...
[/b]

Your friend may have believed it. A few crackpots do. But there are other people who refuse to file, as a form of protest, and are prepared to go to prison for it, as the civil rights protesters were willing to go to jail, and as many in the anti-nuclear movement are willing to go to prison for their beliefs.

[fshagan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 5 2007, 12:21 PM) [snapback]400504[/snapback]</div>

There are people who defy the IRS ...
[/b]

And these people are usually called "prisoners".

[daniel]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Mar 5 2007, 09:24 PM) [snapback]400739[/snapback]</div>

And these people are usually called "prisoners".
[/b]

See my full post. Only categories 3 and 4 can be imprisoned. Category 1 can be fined or have their property taken, but cannot be jailed. Category 2 is committing no crime at all and the IRS cannot touch them. And the first two categories are far more numerous than category 3. And category 4 usually get away with it, since there are not enough prisons to lock up everyone who cheats in small ways on their taxes.

[geologyrox]

An (in)famous creationist and his wife were recently tried for this (ans, I assume, the associated fraud.) I think he got 10 years.

I feel sort of guilty about it, but I was *thrilled* to hear him get real time - granted, I think his sins lay not in the fraud he committed but in his corruption of youth. I once found these at a diner:
http://www.notgneiss.com/pics/front.jpg
http://www.notgneiss.com/pics/back.jpg

One tax evasionist not worthy of applause...

[hycamguy07]

History of the Income Tax in the United States..
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005921.html

The Law that never was.
http://www.thelawthatneverwas.com/new/theman.asp

http://debtism.com/social-security/social-...petual-debt.htm

[Stev0]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Mar 6 2007, 12:01 PM) [snapback]400921[/snapback]</div>

The Law that never was.
http://www.thelawthatneverwas.com/new/theman.asp

http://debtism.com/social-security/social-...petual-debt.htm
[/b]

Do everybody a favor and do NOT become, say, a policeman when you grow up. Anyone with such shakey knowledge of our basic legal system should stay far, far away from it.