Accidental transport of nukes

[efusco]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070905/ap_on_...mber_warheads_1

Wed Sep 5, 10:13 AM ET

A B-52 bomber was mistakenly loaded with five nuclear warheads during a flight from North Dakota to Louisiana, a newspaper reported Wednesday.

The bomber carried advanced cruise missiles as part of a Defense Department program to retire 400 of the missiles, the Military Times said, quoting three officers who spoke on condition they remain anonymous because they were not authorized to discuss the incident.

The officers said the nuclear warheads should have been removed before the missiles were mounted onto pylons under the bomber's wings for the Aug. 30 flight from Minot Air Force Base in North Dakota to Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana, the newspaper said Wednesday.

[/b]

Ok, and maybe I just don't understand everything about training to carry nukes on a plane, but does this not seem like an accident that should NEVER occur? Can't they substitute dummy nukes for training purposes? Seems like if we can accurately simulate something like a Space shuttle then we should be able to simulate a nuclear bomb with a computer too.

Then we could lock away anything nuclear in such a way that they would never be touched except to assure they are secure and when they are about to be deployed. I simply can't imagine the ineptitude and lack of checks that must have occured to allow somebody to go 'oops, forgot about those nukes onboard'....geez.

[F8L]

But Evan, if something were to happen it would be an accident and hense the intent was not to cause harm so everything is ok right? Colateral damage. We need to secure out nuclear arms to protect our freedom and if we accidently crash a plane loaded with armed nuclear weapons on some folks in the Dakotas then that is a small price to pay so we can enjoy ice cream and baseball.

I'm obviously poking fun here and am not assuming the article is 100% legit.

[Lywyllyn]

oh I think its legit alright. The news wires have picked it up ( I know that does not mean things are correct) but given that this hit the wire early this morning, I would expect to see a statement from the military to contrary by now.

can you imagine a crash (which probably wouldn't result in the expected explosion) or practice drop ? The nuke silos in the Midwest would surely react to such an "attack".... Good to know that the world will end due to a bureaucratic screw up and not a power grab, greed or religious extremism, phew !

anyone read 'The Road' yet?

[ny biker]

The Washington Post website has picked up the story - I read about it there. Something about an Air Force commander being fired, and quotes from House Armed Services committee members vowing to investigate. So yeah, it's legit. Also considered "classified" so I wonder how open the investigation will be.

[qbee42]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Sep 5 2007, 02:07 PM) [snapback]507409[/snapback]</div>

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070905/ap_on_...mber_warheads_1
Ok, and maybe I just don't understand everything about training to carry nukes on a plane, but does this not seem like an accident that should NEVER occur? Can't they substitute dummy nukes for training purposes? Seems like if we can accurately simulate something like a Space shuttle then we should be able to simulate a nuclear bomb with a computer too.

Then we could lock away anything nuclear in such a way that they would never be touched except to assure they are secure and when they are about to be deployed. I simply can't imagine the ineptitude and lack of checks that must have occured to allow somebody to go 'oops, forgot about those nukes onboard'....geez.
[/b]

Evan, this wasn't a training exercise. The missiles in question were being transported to a decommissioning site, where they will be destroyed. The warheads (the nuclear part) were supposed to be removed before the old missiles were transported, so yes, they were locked away where they never get touched unless being deployed. That said, I can't imagine how the warheads got through all of the checks and counter checks. Heads are rolling even as we speak.

Tom


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lywyllyn @ Sep 5 2007, 02:31 PM) [snapback]507421[/snapback]</div>

oh I think its legit alright. The news wires have picked it up ( I know that does not mean things are correct) but given that this hit the wire early this morning, I would expect to see a statement from the military to contrary by now.
[/b]

This came from the military press originally.

can you imagine a crash (which probably wouldn't result in the expected explosion) or practice drop ? The nuke silos in the Midwest would surely react to such an "attack".... Good to know that the world will end due to a bureaucratic screw up and not a power grab, greed or religious extremism, phew !
[/b]

A crash or accidental launch wouldn't produce anything close to what most people imagine. What you would get is mostly a big thud when something heavy hit the ground. These missiles were not fused, and lacking the necessary triggers, there is no way they can produce a nuclear explosion. They can make a pretty good conventional bang since they contain some explosives, but even those are hard to set off.

There have been many accidental losses of nuclear devices over the years. In military parlance they are referred to as "broken arrows". Several have not been recovered and are out there waiting for someone to find them.

Tom

[efusco]

Let me be clear, I'm not worried so much about the consequences of a crash...that would be pretty minimal as Tom points out better than I could above. My concern is the, apparently, flippant handling of the material itself. If nobody checked that the warhead's nuclear material was cataloged before the plane left how would they know that that same nuclear material hadn't been intercepted by terrorists.

While I'm sure heads are rolling it's inexcusable that such an error could even occur, the chain of custody should be ridiculously and superflously tight with, perhaps, a single individual responsible for following the material from lock-up at the first place then lock-up at the destination.

[qbee42]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Sep 5 2007, 03:03 PM) [snapback]507441[/snapback]</div>

Let me be clear, I'm not worried so much about the consequences of a crash...that would be pretty minimal as Tom points out better than I could above. My concern is the, apparently, flippant handling of the material itself. If nobody checked that the warhead's nuclear material was cataloged before the plane left how would they know that that same nuclear material hadn't been intercepted by terrorists.

While I'm sure heads are rolling it's inexcusable that such an error could even occur, the chain of custody should be ridiculously and superflously tight with, perhaps, a single individual responsible for following the material from lock-up at the first place then lock-up at the destination.
[/b]

Yes, it's almost incomprehensible that any amount of weapons grade nuclear material can move an inch without the FBI, CIA, IRS, DEA, and a hundred other agencies going into red alert. It doesn't speak well of our overall controls.

Tom

[Sufferin' Prius Envy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(qbee42 @ Sep 5 2007, 12:08 PM) [snapback]507444[/snapback]</div>

Yes, it's almost incomprehensible that any amount of weapons grade nuclear material can move an inch without the FBI, CIA, IRS, DEA, and a hundred other agencies going into red alert. It doesn't speak well of our overall controls.[/b]

It does speak well to our overall controls that the FBI, CIA, etc. are NOT informed each time something moves.

Back in <strike> xx/xx/19xx</strike>, having personally been involved in the handling and transportation of <strike>xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx </strike> from <strike>xxx xxxxxxxxx </strike> to <strike> xxx xxxx xxxxxx </strike>, I can attest to the fact that many people, even the <strike>xxxx xxxxxxxxx</strike> at the places involved - people you would think would have the need to know, don't.

SECURITY THROUGH OBSCURITY.

Hell, if everyone knew, we may have even ended up having a daniel standing on the runway frantically waving his arms in a show of defiance.

[attachmentid=11175]
http://priuschat.com/index.php?s=&show...st&p=454045

[samiam]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lywyllyn @ Sep 6 2007, 06:31 AM) [snapback]507421[/snapback]</div>

anyone read 'The Road' yet?
[/b]

Yes, hugely depressing. I'm afraid I can't recommend it.

Remember these "blasts from the past"?

5/27/57, Kirtland Air Force Base, New Mexico
A B-36 accidentally drops an unarmed nuclear bomb in the New Mexico desert. The bomb's explosive trigger detonates, which obliterates the weapon, scatters debris up to a mile away, and leaves a radioactive crater 25 ft wide and 12 ft deep. (DOD)

1/24/61, Goldsboro, North Carolina
A B-52 on airborn alert begins to breakup, due to stuctural flaws in a wing, and subsequently releases two nuclear bombs. The automatic parachute of one bomb fails, and the bomb breaks apart when it lands. Of the six interlocking safety mechanisms which must be activated in sequence to set off the bomb, five are triggered, leaving only one switch in the way of detonation of the 24 megaton warhead. Additionally, a portion of uranium from the bomb is lost and never recovered. (Lapp. DOD.)

1/17/66, Palomares, SPAIN
An airborn B-52 carrying four multi-megaton nuclear weapons crashes into a refueling tanker and drops all four weapons. The explosive triggers for two of the weapons detonate, scattering plutonium. The accident requires removal of 1,500 tons of soil and plant life, to be stored in the U.S. A third weapon is lost at sea for three months. (DOD)

1/21/68, Thule, GREENLAND
A B-52 carrying four multi-megaton nuclear weapons crashes on its landing approach. The weapons are destroyed in the fire. 237,000 cubic feet of radioactive ice and debris are removed and stored in the United States. (DOD)

More recent ones are still classified...

[galaxee]

i feel 100% silly for keeping my total of ~5 mCi of beta wave emitters under lock and key now.