IRS Suffers Staggering defeat...jury returned zero convictions on 161 charges faced by nine defendants.

burritos · 10-12-2007, 09:34 PM

http://www.lvrj.com/news/9893062.html

Quote:

"Yeah, that's a pretty major victory," said defense lawyer William Cohan. "If you go 0 for 160 (in baseball), they'd send you down to the minor leagues."[/b]

http://www.rense.com/general78/defeat.htm

Quote:

The essence of the argument is that under the Constitution Congress is obligated by law to mint and circulate such coins as demand requires, and must establish the value of coins as they are used as legal tender, but the coins' market value, arising as valuable personal "property," is a distinct, separate attribute of such coins, and is of no legal consequence if the coins are used as legal tender.

In other words, if a worker is paid with such coins, his taxable "income" (if any) can only be the face value indicated upon the coin money paid -- i.e., $1.00 for a circulating silver dollar or $50 for a circulating gold U.S. coin. Not surprisingly, the IRS has never issued any public guidance regarding this significant issue. The first case, Ling Su Fan v. U.S., 218 US 302 (1910) establishes the legal distinction of a coin bearing the "impress" of the sovereign: [/b]

Interesting. Wasn't in any mainstream news outlets.

Sounds like the employees got paid with coins made up of precious metals, like gold. However, they claimed the amount that was imprinted not the amount the gold was worth. And that's allowed according to the law.

daniel · 10-13-2007, 10:32 AM

Hardly a "staggering" defeat. From the above links:

Several defendants pleaded guilty, and for the others the jury hung on the question of whether there was willful conspiracy.

Further, there was an issue in that the IRS had apparently not provided guidance regarding how to report circulating coins whose market value exceeds their face value. You can bet they will provide such guidance very soon. The IRS is likely to assert, and the courts are likely to agree, that if you receive something of value in compensation for your work, you have to pay tax on that value. This is the case when you are paid in kind rather than cash.

These folks found a loophole, and the jury was hung on that loophole, due to the discrepancy between the face value and the market value of circulating coins and the difficulty of proving intent to break the law.

But a hung jury is not an acquittal and the loophole will be rapidly closed.

**TonyPSchaefer** · 10-13-2007, 12:33 PM

I'm not sure about the "IRS Suffers Staggering Defeat". This is not burritos headline, but rather the eye-catching headline of the online article.

Rather, in my opinion, "Jury Hung on IRS Loophole: 5 Plead Guilty, Others Partially Acquitted."

Jon the Chief · 10-13-2007, 05:57 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Oct 12 2007, 08:34 PM) [snapback]524940[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

http://www.lvrj.com/news/9893062.html
http://www.rense.com/general78/defeat.htm
Interesting. Wasn't in any mainstream news outlets.

Sounds like the employees got paid with coins made up of precious metals, like gold. However, they claimed the amount that was imprinted not the amount the gold was worth. And that's allowed according to the law.
[/b]

Good that the law kicks the Feds

In the UK this idea was shut down in the late 60's when a guy was paying his workers in golden sovereigns!

daniel · 10-13-2007, 06:16 PM

The law didn't really kick the feds. The issue of whether these folks still owe taxes was not resolved, and nobody was acquitted. A hung jury means that the prosecutor can re-try them if he likes. My guess is that they'll still have to pay the taxes, even if they get out of the criminal charges for evading taxes, which is clearly what they were doing.

Note: I applaud anyone who evades taxes. But if you do it illegally, you'd better be prepared to do the time. You can avoid taxes legally by living below the taxable level. But if you conceal your income, as these folks did, you're taking your chances. Apparently they were clever enough to stay out of jail (for the time being).

I knew a guy who filed a correct tax return, but refused to pay. You can be sent to prison for failing to file, or for filing a false return; but you cannot be sent to prison for refusing to pay. In that case, they just take your property or salary, plus fines and fees. In my friend's case it was a matter of principle.

Note: I lived below the taxable level for a long time, thereby legally avoiding taxes. These days I pay every penny the accountant says I owe. But I do have a soft spot in my heart for tax refusers.

10-13-2007, 10:32 AM	#2
daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 11,278 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: Package: #6 Thanks: 59 Thanked 201 Times in 127 Posts Friends: 0	Hardly a "staggering" defeat. From the above links: Several defendants pleaded guilty, and for the others the jury hung on the question of whether there was willful conspiracy. Further, there was an issue in that the IRS had apparently not provided guidance regarding how to report circulating coins whose market value exceeds their face value. You can bet they will provide such guidance very soon. The IRS is likely to assert, and the courts are likely to agree, that if you receive something of value in compensation for your work, you have to pay tax on that value. This is the case when you are paid in kind rather than cash. These folks found a loophole, and the jury was hung on that loophole, due to the discrepancy between the face value and the market value of circulating coins and the difficulty of proving intent to break the law. But a hung jury is not an acquittal and the loophole will be rapidly closed. __________________ Daniel Primary car: 100% Electric 2003 Porsche 911 Carrera. Estimated range at 55 mph: 81 miles total or 64 miles to 80% discharge. Top speed 70 mph. Secondary car: Zap Xebra SD, also 100% electric. 1.9 cents per mile. Range: 40 miles total, or 32 miles to 80% discharge. Top speed 35 mph. Faster downhill. Both EVs use electrons generated from water power. Gas guzzler for when I have to travel farther than 60 miles: 2004 Prius. "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." -- Emma Goldman "Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war." -- Otto von Bismarck

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Senator Tim Johnson(D) of S. Dakota Suffers Stroke	dragonfly	Fred's House of Pancakes	24	12-17-2006 08:04 PM
Faced with this crisis	Areometer	Environmental Discussion	12	07-12-2005 06:45 PM
Real Dealer Charges vs. Fake/Profit Charges?	Prius-a-rama	Dealers & Pricing	12	06-08-2005 11:02 AM
Getting Deposit Returned	pycnanthemum	Dealers & Pricing	7	03-15-2005 12:53 PM
Inauguration Excess while world suffers	Robert Taylor	Fred's House of Pancakes	43	02-22-2005 10:43 PM

10-13-2007, 12:33 PM	#3
TonyPSchaefer Your Friendly Moderator Join Date: May 2004 Location: Far-North Chicagoland Posts: 10,503 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: Package: #9 Thanks: 39 Thanked 165 Times in 106 Posts Friends: 23	I'm not sure about the "IRS Suffers Staggering Defeat". This is not burritos headline, but rather the eye-catching headline of the online article. Rather, in my opinion, "Jury Hung on IRS Loophole: 5 Plead Guilty, Others Partially Acquitted."

10-13-2007, 06:16 PM	#5
daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 11,278 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: Package: #6 Thanks: 59 Thanked 201 Times in 127 Posts Friends: 0	The law didn't really kick the feds. The issue of whether these folks still owe taxes was not resolved, and nobody was acquitted. A hung jury means that the prosecutor can re-try them if he likes. My guess is that they'll still have to pay the taxes, even if they get out of the criminal charges for evading taxes, which is clearly what they were doing. Note: I applaud anyone who evades taxes. But if you do it illegally, you'd better be prepared to do the time. You can avoid taxes legally by living below the taxable level. But if you conceal your income, as these folks did, you're taking your chances. Apparently they were clever enough to stay out of jail (for the time being). I knew a guy who filed a correct tax return, but refused to pay. You can be sent to prison for failing to file, or for filing a false return; but you cannot be sent to prison for refusing to pay. In that case, they just take your property or salary, plus fines and fees. In my friend's case it was a matter of principle. Note: I lived below the taxable level for a long time, thereby legally avoiding taxes. These days I pay every penny the accountant says I owe. But I do have a soft spot in my heart for tax refusers.