Myth: there is a shortage of math and science in the U.S.

JackDodge · 11-01-2007, 02:25 PM

http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/conte...htm?chan=search

You've probably heard this erroneous assumption many times before. That the U.S. is way behind the rest of the world in producing math and science students, that we're getting dumber by the day. However, the real story seems to be the opposite:

"Salzman and Lowell found the reverse was true. Their report shows U.S. student performance has steadily improved over time in math, science, and reading. It also found enrollment in math and science courses is actually up. For example, in 1982 high school graduates earned 2.6 math credits and 2.2 science credits on average. By 1998, the average number of credits increased to 3.5 math and 3.2 science credits. The percent of students taking chemistry increased from 45% in 1990 to 55% in 1996 and 60% in 2004. Scores in national tests such as the National Assessment of Educational Progress, the SAT, and the ACT have also shown increases in math scores over the past two decades."

Why do so many believe otherwise?

"Why the sharp discrepancy? Salzman says that reports citing low U.S. international rankings often misinterpret the data. Review of the international rankings, which he says are all based on one of two tests, the Trends in International Mathematics & Science Study (TIMMS) or the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), show the U.S. is in a second-ranked group, not trailing the leading economies of the world as is commonly reported. In fact, the few countries that place higher than the U.S. are generally small nations, and few of these rank consistently high across all grades, subjects, and years tested. Moreover, he says, serious methodological flaws, such as different test populations, and other limitations preclude drawing any meaningful comparison of school systems between countries."

qbee42 · 11-01-2007, 02:29 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JackDodge @ Nov 1 2007, 02:25 PM) [snapback]533476[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

"Salzman and Lowell found the reverse was true.
[/b]

Yea, but Salzman is wrong. It turns out he made a sign error in the arithmetic when totaling the study results.

Tom

DaveinOlyWA · 11-01-2007, 03:40 PM

omg...

you are comparing students in the 80's????...by then, we had already gone thru YEARS of decline. check stats compared with the mid 60's.... i think a completely different story will emerge

JackDodge · 11-01-2007, 04:03 PM

Those were just a couple of paragraphs. You might find it enlightening to read the entire article. I wonder why America so wants to believe that it's getting dumber, even when there's evidence to the contrary. I put the link to the article for a reason. Perhaps I should have kept quotes out of the post to get people to actually read something.

madler · 11-01-2007, 04:22 PM

I'd say that if Microsoft is claiming that they can't get enough good programmers, their software alone is evidence that weighs heavily in their favor in this argument.

DaveinOlyWA · 11-01-2007, 04:32 PM

i read the article and its spin didnt do a thing for me

judymcfarland · 11-01-2007, 06:04 PM

As a former math teacher, I believe the big problem lies in elementary schools where teachers are very negative about math and pass that "can't do it" attitude along to their students. I've taught content and math methods for elementary teachers and found abyssmal skills and negative attitudes among these fledgling teachers. Parents who tell their children "I couldn't ever do math either" and students who keep asking "when am I ever going to need to know this?" are also perpetuating the belief that math is too difficult for most people. I'm proud that my 3 grandchildren think math is cool (my son was a math/physics major in college). Talking algebra with my oldest grandson is a blast!

DaveinOlyWA · 11-01-2007, 06:56 PM

yep its one positive study about the american education system in a sea of negative reports.

i work in a job where i see a constant flow of young people trying to work in the real world without basic tools. their level of grammar, math, reasoning skills, etc is appalling. the job is not technically challenging but does require some computer skills, a little math, etc. and the job pays based on how efficiently one performs the job.

our turnover rate is running at about 120% annually simply because they get frustrated because they are not making money simply because they have to constantly ask for help understanding very very basic math concepts. heck its cellphone bills, how complicated can the math possibly be?

say what you want about the study, i think its nothing but a BS... i love the line that we have graduated 450,000 americans AND OTHERS WITH PERMANENT RESIDENCY into the engineering fields... bet ya less than half have completely american roots.

n8kwx · 11-01-2007, 07:03 PM

I think the biggest reason is the "geek" factor. Kids want respect.

In this country go ask a bunch of students who their "hero" is. Some sports star is common.

Then I read that in Vietnam, Bill Gates once visited a school and was swarmed by the schoolkids like he was a rock star...

V8Cobrakid · 11-01-2007, 07:28 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Nov 1 2007, 03:56 PM) [snapback]533594[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

heck its cellphone bills, how complicated can the math possibly be? [/b]

Our generation kinda lost the aspect of a "safety net" when it comes to funds. I had to teach my parents about it... still working on it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(n8kwx @ Nov 1 2007, 04:03 PM) [snapback]533597[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

I think the biggest reason is the "geek" factor. Kids want respect.

In this country go ask a bunch of students who their "hero" is. Some sports star is common.

Then I read that in Vietnam, Bill Gates once visited a school and was swarmed by the schoolkids like he was a rock star... [/b]

Bingo. I know a fair amount of people who work off this aspect. Hollywood will always be around

Most people my age (23) feel we need to do something to help improve this world. It used to be called quality (Rome?). My buddies and I feel it's good karma. In everything you build, work for, or alter; make it the best it can be to last the longest it can. Re organize things.. companies.. cities. mass trans portation. it's the best for the world as a whole.

It makes me wonder if we'll ever put this planet back together. Our systems thrive off of falling apart, or selling crap (cheap entertainment) at a low enough price to kill the economy. then you have "credit" which is crap.

Let's build colleseums again. we'll have huge spas too.

11-01-2007, 02:25 PM	#1
JackDodge Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Bloomfield Hills, MI Posts: 2,375 My Car: Other Hybrid Model: Package: N/A Thanks: 2 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts Friends: 0	http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/conte...htm?chan=search You've probably heard this erroneous assumption many times before. That the U.S. is way behind the rest of the world in producing math and science students, that we're getting dumber by the day. However, the real story seems to be the opposite: "Salzman and Lowell found the reverse was true. Their report shows U.S. student performance has steadily improved over time in math, science, and reading. It also found enrollment in math and science courses is actually up. For example, in 1982 high school graduates earned 2.6 math credits and 2.2 science credits on average. By 1998, the average number of credits increased to 3.5 math and 3.2 science credits. The percent of students taking chemistry increased from 45% in 1990 to 55% in 1996 and 60% in 2004. Scores in national tests such as the National Assessment of Educational Progress, the SAT, and the ACT have also shown increases in math scores over the past two decades." Why do so many believe otherwise? "Why the sharp discrepancy? Salzman says that reports citing low U.S. international rankings often misinterpret the data. Review of the international rankings, which he says are all based on one of two tests, the Trends in International Mathematics & Science Study (TIMMS) or the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), show the U.S. is in a second-ranked group, not trailing the leading economies of the world as is commonly reported. In fact, the few countries that place higher than the U.S. are generally small nations, and few of these rank consistently high across all grades, subjects, and years tested. Moreover, he says, serious methodological flaws, such as different test populations, and other limitations preclude drawing any meaningful comparison of school systems between countries." __________________ "Isolation exists only in isolation. Once shared, it evaporates" - Dr. Breuer from the movie "When Nietzsche Wept"

11-01-2007, 06:04 PM	#7
judymcfarland Queen of Moral Indignation Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Glendale, WI Posts: 575 My Car: 2007 Prius Model: Package: #3 Touring Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 7	As a former math teacher, I believe the big problem lies in elementary schools where teachers are very negative about math and pass that "can't do it" attitude along to their students. I've taught content and math methods for elementary teachers and found abyssmal skills and negative attitudes among these fledgling teachers. Parents who tell their children "I couldn't ever do math either" and students who keep asking "when am I ever going to need to know this?" are also perpetuating the belief that math is too difficult for most people. I'm proud that my 3 grandchildren think math is cool (my son was a math/physics major in college). Talking algebra with my oldest grandson is a blast! __________________ ============= "Fiona" - Silver Pine 2007 Touring Edition, Package #3 plus XM Radio and EBH (She's a princess, but not an ogre!)

11-01-2007, 06:56 PM	#8
DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: South Puget Sound, WA Posts: 12,375 My Car: 2010 Prius Model: IV Package: Solar Roof Thanks: 24 Thanked 121 Times in 103 Posts Friends: 10	yep its one positive study about the american education system in a sea of negative reports. i work in a job where i see a constant flow of young people trying to work in the real world without basic tools. their level of grammar, math, reasoning skills, etc is appalling. the job is not technically challenging but does require some computer skills, a little math, etc. and the job pays based on how efficiently one performs the job. our turnover rate is running at about 120% annually simply because they get frustrated because they are not making money simply because they have to constantly ask for help understanding very very basic math concepts. heck its cellphone bills, how complicated can the math possibly be? say what you want about the study, i think its nothing but a BS... i love the line that we have graduated 450,000 americans AND OTHERS WITH PERMANENT RESIDENCY into the engineering fields... bet ya less than half have completely american roots. __________________ My Blue 2010 : Last tank 541.9 @ 49.48 pump (56.7 MFD) 5.54 CPM, 21 MPH, Lifetime:5442.2 miles 56.5 MPG pump. (62.22 MFD) 4.72 CPM. Summer MPG 57.4 Winter: 49.5 My 2006 SPM: Last tank 376.6 miles @38.21 pump (40.8 MFD) 7.17 cpm winter mpg 49.64 summer mpg 53.41 lifetime: 42,563.5 miles 51.5 mpg pump (52.7 mpg MFD) 5.51 cpm My 2007 Zenn total "fuel cost" $166.58 on "about" 9599.7 miles. 1.74 cents per mile (granted i plug in for free at work!!) My Plate: DUALPWR (Dual Power)

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11-01-2007, 03:40 PM	#3
DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: South Puget Sound, WA Posts: 12,375 My Car: 2010 Prius Model: IV Package: Solar Roof Thanks: 24 Thanked 121 Times in 103 Posts Friends: 10	omg... you are comparing students in the 80's????...by then, we had already gone thru YEARS of decline. check stats compared with the mid 60's.... i think a completely different story will emerge

11-01-2007, 04:03 PM	#4
JackDodge Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Bloomfield Hills, MI Posts: 2,375 My Car: Other Hybrid Model: Package: N/A Thanks: 2 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts Friends: 0	Those were just a couple of paragraphs. You might find it enlightening to read the entire article. I wonder why America so wants to believe that it's getting dumber, even when there's evidence to the contrary. I put the link to the article for a reason. Perhaps I should have kept quotes out of the post to get people to actually read something.

11-01-2007, 04:22 PM	#5
madler Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Pasadena, California Posts: 281 My Car: 2005 Prius Model: Package: #4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	I'd say that if Microsoft is claiming that they can't get enough good programmers, their software alone is evidence that weighs heavily in their favor in this argument.

11-01-2007, 04:32 PM	#6
DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: South Puget Sound, WA Posts: 12,375 My Car: 2010 Prius Model: IV Package: Solar Roof Thanks: 24 Thanked 121 Times in 103 Posts Friends: 10	i read the article and its spin didnt do a thing for me

11-01-2007, 07:03 PM	#9
n8kwx Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arlington Heights, IL - NW Chicago Suburb Posts: 236 My Car: Other Hybrid Model: Package: N/A Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	I think the biggest reason is the "geek" factor. Kids want respect. In this country go ask a bunch of students who their "hero" is. Some sports star is common. Then I read that in Vietnam, Bill Gates once visited a school and was swarmed by the schoolkids like he was a rock star...