Ever feel like just getting out of here?

[ezbngrn]

For the longest time I was of the oppinion that the USA was the greatest, most advanced, wealthiest country in the world. Well our recent struggling economy cuppled with a recent trip to germany has changed my oppinion. I can't help but constantly compare, and wonder why if in europe people live "green" everyday, here in the US it is such a big deal to be enviromentally friendly. It just seams to me that even though there is a huge language barrier I felt more in tune with the european way of life.

WHat I would like to discuss is how many of U out there has considered or have actually moved from another country? What influences your decision, work, economy, politics, climate, family? Would you sacrifce being 5000 miles from loved ones to live in a place you felt more comfortable,or your money went further? Would you consider a smaller move maybe just to another (less corrupt) state?

[Proco]

I think this has the potential to be a very interesting thread. It also has the potential to attract the "if you hate America so much ...." crowd. Eh, what are you gonna do.

I've never seriously considered leaving the USA. Mostly because, despite what I think of our current administration, I still think this is the greatest country there is. I just think we have our priorities wrong.

After my wife & I visited Scotland this past May, I did check if there were job openings in my field there (and how much they pay). The country is so beautiful and the people so friendly that I was willing to have a 1 or 2 year adventure so we could spend more time there.

I felt the same when when we visited Montreal a few years ago. I'm not much of a city person, but I just absolutely loved it there and could be quite happy (if cold) there.

If I were single, the decision would be a lot easier. I might just go somewhere for the adventure. I'm not close to my family, so there's nothing of that sort tying me here. But my wife absolutely loves where we live. She's never wanted to live anywhere else (she grew up here) and would never be happy anywhere but the Jersey Shore. Having lived here for 9 years myself, I'm inclined to agree.

[jweale]

I've briefly considered moving (and technically have dual USA/UK citizenship), but ultimately I do think the US is the best country for me. What it lacks in 'green-ness' it makes up for in social arenas (primarily racial equality and honesty, freedom of speech, immigrant inclusiveness, predisposition toward meritocracy, etc.) that I feel a lack of in the European countries I am familiar with. I certainly care about the environment, but it's not my one-issue item.

I do have a couple friends who are in the midst of emigrating to Argentina (a move started, not coincidently after the 2004 elections). They spent a half-year driving across the US in a VW bus to see where they live now, then a year bouncing around South America to find where they wanted to settle. Beyond minor things (getting a permanent apartment without a local land owner to co-sign has proven tricky), but as well educated and highly skilled professionals the paperwork and approvals are moving along without a hitch. It's likely that most everyone on this board could do the same; American education is actually pretty darn good and if you are from the educational strata that can typically afford a Prius, pretty much any nation in the world will put out a welcome mat. it's just a matter of if there honestly is someplace that, when all factors are accounted for, better fits your social comfort desires.

From observation, one doesn't emigrate in one fell swoop. It's a long process and its easy to leave yourself outs along the way, so while it's a huge initial leap it is pretty easy to reverse course (although you may have to get back on a waiting list for a new Prius if the '09 is as awesome as it is suppose to be ).

[TonyPSchaefer]

My company has a location in every country on Earth. Yep, even there.
Last month I was in Switzerland and one of the Directors there hinted that there could potentially be an opening for me in his organization if I were interested. It's not that I would want to leave the US out of spite. In fact, I would consider only a short-term overseas employment with the intent of returning. There were so many things that truly impressed me but are everyday life for them: the "rightsized" cars, the green houses, the fact that the hallways and most of the offices in the buildings are lighted by natural light.

I truly believe that living abroad for an extended period of time opens a person's eyes and makes them more accepting to other people/cultures/beliefs.

But in the end, I would come back to the U.S. I'm a U.S. citizen and always will be.

[ezbngrn]

Whow, OK don't get me wrong, I love the US. I have done quite a bit of traveling to S.america and the carribean and have always returned with a great appreciation of our way of life. But not so with my trip to europe. I mean just the way the health care system works. Why can't the most powerful country in the world provide it's citizens decent health care?

[burritos]

I consider New Zealand for about five minutes maybe once a year. Friendly people, english speaking, asian presence, great outdoors, california lifestyle, twice the amount of coast yet 1/10 the population of Cali.

But in the end, I love this fricking country. I love my family. I love my friends.

[KMO]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ezbngrn @ Nov 27 2007, 08:15 PM) [snapback]544825[/snapback]</div>

Why can't the most powerful country in the world provide it's citizens decent health care?
[/b]

Because its government is not operated for the benefit of its citizens.

[tripp]

I've often thought about moving to a common wealth country. Wife would never go for it, however. I'd love NZ (I know, SamIam, you guys don't want me), or the UK. I identify with their culture and already speak the language, which is a huge plus. I'm hoping that as we (the US) move forward we're going to look around and realize that other countries have it as good or better than us in many of the areas that we've always thought we were tops. The implementation is different, yes, but often equally good. However, what works in Europe may no work here. Our culture and mentality is different. American's are obsessed with the rights of the individual and 'me'. Europeans are much less that way, I'd wager.

I'd luv the chance to watch New Castle United week end and week out (provided that they don't play like they are right now, depressing).

[PriuStorm]

I was born in Denmark and was just there for a 3 week vacation this past summer. Every time I go back, I find it so interesting how such a little country can provide so much for its citizens, and the "greatest" country in history can't even compare. Like one of the above posters mentioned, Denmark lives green EVERY day... it's part of the culture to save water, compost, conserve resources, use gas frugally, etc. Windmills are everywhere where practical. I remember my parents using an electric lawnmower when I was 9 years old (over three decades ago). Dual flush toilets are the norm and have been for decades.

Thats just green... How about roads/highways? Denmark is a country that gets frost, snow, ice.. and occasionally gets some decent summer temps. But the roads are immaculate considering all the weather beating they get and the amount of traffic they withstand on a daily basis. Even the smallest country backroad is without potholes, and there are a lot of roads connecting all those little towns. Compare to here where we have tar snakes all over the place, potholes, raggedy-ann-patchwork of potholes everywhere, etc. and that's in moderate climate (rare freezing) California.

Denmark and Sweden just built an engineering marvel, a tunnel/bridge connecting Sweden and Denmark. Here, we have collapsing freeway ramps, collapsing bridges, etc. Want to buy quality? Don't buy American... buy Scandinavian, European or Japanese. American products (whether furniture, cars, etc.) just don't compare to products engineered and built by Europe, Scandinavia or Japan.

Denmark has social medicine. This has its positives as well as its negatives. If the U.S. were smart, they would take all the positives of a system like that and implement it with all the positives our healthcare system has to offer. But we don't, so where in Denmark every citizen can expect to receive the same B level of care, in the U.S., out of 6 patients, 1 receives A level, 4 receive B level, and 1 receives no care. I'll take guaranteed B level any day over risking to be the guy without any care whatsoever. The other thread going mentioned how the U.S. ranks 37th in healthcare in the world.

As a result, Denmark and the other European countries are as a people healthier than Americans... Less diabetes, less obesity (though it's on the rise as more McDonald's and 7-11's get built), etc. The Netherlands were honored with having the tallest people on earth last year, towering over Americans (Americans adjusted for 'shorter' immigrant populations). The Netherlands' 'feat' was attributed to (of all things) their excellent health care, especially prenatal and infancy.

The U.S. as a whole lags behind pretty much all other industrialized countries when it comes to general education. Our kids are graduating high school dumber and dumber, and learn a fraction of what kids in European schools learn. Sure, those kids who are driven propel themselves onto higher educational institutions and excel there, and we do have some of the best institutions there worldwide, but as a nation, we pretty much suck. Take a random sampling of American kids, European kids, Chinese kids, etc., and Americans don't know second languages, don't know their geography, don't know their history, science, math, etc. We think it's funny when we watch Jay Leno put someone on the spot with simple questions about American government, but truly it's sad.

Back to the original question... I only stay here because I am in a committed relationship of several decades, and my partner does not want to move. But I worry greatly that the U.S. is on the brink of an economic collapse. Should I find myself single at some point, I wouldn't stay here at all. There are some wonderful American people here, but generally speaking, Americans are too full of entitlement, superiority (mistaken and unearned), swagger, bully-nature... and lack taking responsibility, doing their part, being open to constructive criticism or other ideas, etc.

Americans are quick to tout all the "freedoms" that are guaranteed by the Constitution. You can thank GWB that those are not so guaranteed any more. And the U.S. is not the only country where you can speak your mind and not worry about governmental retribution. Only in the U.S. can a pauper be made a rich man in the courtroom because they spilled a hot cup of coffee in their lap while they were driving their car. I'd wager any European country would have thrown Stella on her ass. Common sense, another lost character in the U.S.

Some may say... if the U.S. isn't so great, why do people come here? By now, the word has gotten out that the country is out of control, and anyone can profit like the Enron and Halliburton crooks have (oh, and if you're caught and have enough money, then you're just put up for a few years in a posh holding area). It's a crook's haven in the U.S., where phishers and spammers are protected by freedom of speech, and free to scam and pilfer all they want (oh sure, a token few may be picked up by the feds, but it's a small amount). In America, you can get away with murder if you have enough money. And you can get enough money easily by scamming and hiding it. Americans are more concerned with what Demi Moore is wearing (or not)while she's pregnant, whether O.J. is going to get away with it again, whether Britney is going to lose her kids, etc., than they are about the current state of affairs. It's very sad.

And this election will be no different... programmed by corporate advertising (brainwashing) to be good little selfish consumers, Americans will follow like mindless sheep behind whoever disturbs their status quo the least. America used to stand for progress and improvement. Now it stands for bureaucracy and hypocrisy.

[samiam]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ezbngrn @ Nov 28 2007, 07:27 AM) [snapback]544779[/snapback]</div>

WHat I would like to discuss is how many of U out there has considered or have actually moved from another country?
[/b]

Been there, done that, T-shirts galore.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ezbngrn @ Nov 28 2007, 07:27 AM) [snapback]544779[/snapback]</div>

What influences your decision, work, economy, politics, climate, family?
[/b]

EDIT
I see that the last part of my post was truncated when the system froze on me.
Here's something similar to what I said.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ezbngrn @ Nov 28 2007, 07:27 AM) [snapback]544779[/snapback]</div>

What influences your decision, work, economy, politics, climate, family?
[/b]

Our children were approaching middle-school age and we couldn't afford to buy them handguns


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ezbngrn @ Nov 28 2007, 07:27 AM) [snapback]544779[/snapback]</div>

Would you sacrifce being 5000 miles from loved ones to live in a place you felt more comfortable,or your money went further? Would you consider a smaller move maybe just to another (less corrupt) state?
[/b]

Closer to 8,000 miles for us.
We were already in the *best* state in the union.
Money doesn't go further (see the threads about prius prices), so that wasn't a factor.

I had to work on convincing my wife for nearly 10 years. She finally decided we had to have jobs waiting for us prior to moving, I would have been happy selling burritos on the beach.

Lots of reasons for moving. Don't feel like being controversial today though.
One I will share: I wanted to slow down the apparent passage of time by experiencing a new way of life.
Emigration has been shown to produce a significant broadening to the reminiscence bump in autobiographical memory. (I'll have more to savour at the time, and more to look back on).

Never regretted a day in the eleven+ years since we made the move.