Diesel vs. Hybrid

patsparks · 08-31-2007, 05:43 AM

I think it was a Burnley thing. I put it out there to see what response I got.
Yes Prius is a big car there, I had a Vauxhall Meriva (good little car) when I was there in 2004 and my friends thought that was big. I had a Camry back here and they thought that was huge.
I'd like to see some Toyota diesels here!! Only the 4x4s and utes come in diesel here.

I guess diesel has established it'self in europe unlike Australia and USA so it's harder for Toyota to break into the market there. Manual transmission is more popular too and "Top Gear" didn't help. Their test was stupid.

gazz · 08-31-2007, 06:43 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(patsparks @ Aug 31 2007, 04:43 AM) [snapback]504783[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

I think it was a Burnley thing. I put it out there to see what response I got.
Yes Prius is a big car there, I had a Vauxhall Meriva (good little car) when I was there in 2004 and my friends thought that was big. I had a Camry back here and they thought that was huge.
I'd like to see some Toyota diesels here!! Only the 4x4s and utes come in diesel here.

I guess diesel has established it'self in europe unlike Australia and USA so it's harder for Toyota to break into the market there. Manual transmission is more popular too and "Top Gear" didn't help. Their test was stupid.
[/b]

An interesting point about autos, in the UK autos are quite rare, and I have noticed that manufactures are not always offering autos with the diesels. The new Honda Civic diesel does not have an auto option. Since I have had the Prius I would have think very carefully about a manual again.

Also I drove a new Mazda 3 1.6 Turbo diesel, which has a book mpg similar to the Prius. The car I believe will struggle to get it but will be good. The thing I noticed and the guy that has the car agrees with is that it is totally gut less a low revs. I stalled the car a number of times pulling away. This totally does not fit the high torque low rpm you expect from a turbo diesel, If all the new diesels are like that to get the high mpg then that will be not good.

patsparks · 08-31-2007, 09:14 AM

Doesn't sound typical of diesels.

fred s · 08-31-2007, 10:18 AM

The diesel in Europe is cleaner than here in the US, less sulfur etc.

finman · 08-31-2007, 10:34 AM

"Some German motorways have no speed limit and diesels will run at these high speeds all day where a hybrid would struggle."

Prove it.

Some American Interstates (I-90 in Montana) have no daytime speed limit and my hybrid HAS run all day at high speeds where a diesel will struggle. Really just saying the same thing. I've no proof either.

I dislike the hybrids do nothing on the highway argument. HSD is constantly and consistently producing and consuming electricity to get better efficiency and lower emissions, using just enough for the job at hand, in the city or on the highway.

patsparks · 08-31-2007, 10:40 AM

I don't have to prove anything to you, Toyota need to prove the Prius to Europe if they want to sell them there.
You drive long distances at 100+mph in your Prius? Yeah OK. and when you do you still manage diesel beating economy?

There is no reason for US diesel being dirtier than EU diesel. What reason is there for that? It isn't the diesel car's fault.

gazz · 08-31-2007, 10:40 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(finman @ Aug 31 2007, 09:34 AM) [snapback]504866[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

"Some German motorways have no speed limit and diesels will run at these high speeds all day where a hybrid would struggle."

Prove it.

Some American Interstates (I-90 in Montana) have no daytime speed limit and my hybrid HAS run all day at high speeds where a diesel will struggle. Really just saying the same thing. I've no proof either.

I dislike the hybrids do nothing on the highway argument. HSD is constantly and consistently producing and consuming electricity to get better efficiency and lower emissions, using just enough for the job at hand, in the city or on the highway.
[/b]

I agree the Prius will cruise at high speed no problem (unless you mean very high speed) it just does not see the mpg advantage it get at slower speed, but it is still good. My old corolla got about 40UK mpg at speed the Prius gets about 50UK mpg, 10mpg better

finman · 08-31-2007, 10:50 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(patsparks @ Aug 31 2007, 10:40 AM) [snapback]504868[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

I don't have to prove anything to you, Toyota need to prove the Prius to Europe if they want to sell them there.
You drive long distances at 100+mph in your Prius? Yeah OK. and when you do you still manage diesel beating economy?

There is no reason for US diesel being dirtier than EU diesel. What reason is there for that? It isn't the diesel car's fault.
[/b]

No, not long distances at 100+MPH. I just wanted to state the Prius is capable without ever having to prove it. :P

All cars are subject to the laws of physics and air resistance, meaning the faster you go, the more energy is need to move you...even a diesel can't escape that. I want to say the few that have done 100+MPH in the Prius reported 25 MPG. I've no idea if a diesel will do that. Some cars are designed to be for the higher-speed highways, some are designed to be a bit more all-around performers.

I've no idea about the dirty diesel fuel here...cost, maybe? More $$ to get or refine cleaner, lower-sulfur diesel?

madler · 08-31-2007, 10:52 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(finman @ Aug 31 2007, 07:34 AM) [snapback]504866[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

I dislike the hybrids do nothing on the highway argument. HSD is constantly and consistently producing and consuming electricity to get better efficiency and lower emissions, using just enough for the job at hand, in the city or on the highway.[/b]

You might dislike the statement, but it's true. Producing and consuming electricity at constant speed on flat ground can only reduce efficiency, and therefore increase emissions. You will always lose energy when converting energy from one form to another, and then lose some more energy when you convert it back again.

The only benefit a hybrid has in those conditions is that the ICE is smaller than in most other cars. What you get from the hybrid is when you want to accelerate to pass, for example, you get the equivalent power of a larger engine from the electric motor augmentation instead. What the hybrid allows is good acceleration without having to pay for the inefficiency of an engine sized to the highest required acceleration when you are not actually accelerating.

A diesel with the same power as the gas ICE in the Prius pushing a car with the same aerodynamic drag as the Prius will have much better efficiency than the Prius at constant high speed on level ground.

Where the hybrid really shines against the non-hybrid diesel is when you are decelerating (including stopping) and accelerating a lot. I.e. normal street driving. Then you get all the advantages mentioned of running the ICE at more efficient conditions most of the time, recovering energy from the brakes, shutting down the ICE when it's not needed, and using the electric motor to augment acceleration.

Generating electricity and converting back to mechanical energy is an inefficiency that you invest, to get more dividends back in stop and go or accelerating and decelerating traffic. At constant speed on level ground, you get back no dividends.

finman · 08-31-2007, 11:08 AM

I guess all these diesels are just dropped from the sky doing 100 MPH and NEVER see city driving, always going full out.

So many other advantages of hybrids escape the diesel fans. so be it. These have been discussed before.

My point is your point: smaller engine augmented by electricty when needed instead of a large engine that is used largely (pun intended) for getting up to speed, rarely needing that power to lug around.

I really don't care about diesels. Until you can get one that saves brake pads (regenerative braking), stops when the vehicle is stopped, and is lower in OVERALL pollution, then we may have a case.

Others "Need" that power and speed for the higher speed roadways. that's fine, buy and use the car for it's intended purpose.

Many "need" 4WD and yet, rarely "use" it.

08-31-2007, 05:43 AM	#11
patsparks Uneducated bird-brain Aussie Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Adelaide South Australia Posts: 5,853 My Car: 2004 Prius Package: Base Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 23	I think it was a Burnley thing. I put it out there to see what response I got. Yes Prius is a big car there, I had a Vauxhall Meriva (good little car) when I was there in 2004 and my friends thought that was big. I had a Camry back here and they thought that was huge. I'd like to see some Toyota diesels here!! Only the 4x4s and utes come in diesel here. I guess diesel has established it'self in europe unlike Australia and USA so it's harder for Toyota to break into the market there. Manual transmission is more popular too and "Top Gear" didn't help. Their test was stupid. __________________ All the warranty I need. And for thrills -> Still averaging 4.4L/100km across town 2004 silver base model Prius Shark fin, genuine mudflaps, colour matched side mouldings, rear bumper scuff guard, sheepskin seats, BT Plate. I love it!

08-31-2007, 10:34 AM	#15
finman Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Rapid City, SD Posts: 934 My Car: 2004 Prius Package: #7 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	"Some German motorways have no speed limit and diesels will run at these high speeds all day where a hybrid would struggle." Prove it. Some American Interstates (I-90 in Montana) have no daytime speed limit and my hybrid HAS run all day at high speeds where a diesel will struggle. Really just saying the same thing. I've no proof either. I dislike the hybrids do nothing on the highway argument. HSD is constantly and consistently producing and consuming electricity to get better efficiency and lower emissions, using just enough for the job at hand, in the city or on the highway. __________________ 04' Seaside Pearl #7. Fumoto oil drain, add-on mudflaps, rear bumper scuff protector & rear sensor warn, compass mirror, EV mode, synthetic oil, 8" custom sub in right rear cubby, 6" subs under front seats, power lumbar in front seats, Coastaletech hitch with Aspen bike/snowboard rack, iPod2car, DVD video, 2 amps, Alpine component speakers, solid 47 MPG @70000 miles, best tank 56 MPG.

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08-31-2007, 09:14 AM	#13
patsparks Uneducated bird-brain Aussie Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Adelaide South Australia Posts: 5,853 My Car: 2004 Prius Package: Base Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 23	Doesn't sound typical of diesels.

08-31-2007, 10:18 AM	#14
fred s Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 62 My Car: Package: Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	The diesel in Europe is cleaner than here in the US, less sulfur etc.

08-31-2007, 10:40 AM	#16
patsparks Uneducated bird-brain Aussie Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Adelaide South Australia Posts: 5,853 My Car: 2004 Prius Package: Base Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 23	I don't have to prove anything to you, Toyota need to prove the Prius to Europe if they want to sell them there. You drive long distances at 100+mph in your Prius? Yeah OK. and when you do you still manage diesel beating economy? There is no reason for US diesel being dirtier than EU diesel. What reason is there for that? It isn't the diesel car's fault.

08-31-2007, 11:08 AM	#20
finman Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Rapid City, SD Posts: 934 My Car: 2004 Prius Package: #7 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	I guess all these diesels are just dropped from the sky doing 100 MPH and NEVER see city driving, always going full out. So many other advantages of hybrids escape the diesel fans. so be it. These have been discussed before. My point is your point: smaller engine augmented by electricty when needed instead of a large engine that is used largely (pun intended) for getting up to speed, rarely needing that power to lug around. I really don't care about diesels. Until you can get one that saves brake pads (regenerative braking), stops when the vehicle is stopped, and is lower in OVERALL pollution, then we may have a case. Others "Need" that power and speed for the higher speed roadways. that's fine, buy and use the car for it's intended purpose. Many "need" 4WD and yet, rarely "use" it.