Diesel vs. Hybrid

[briloop]

A co-worker of mine recently returned from a two week vacation in Germany. He said that he saw only one hybrid vehicle during those two weeks. He said the Germans won't buy hybrids because hybrids don't have any advantages over diesel-powered vehicles, which is the most commonly found vehicle in Germany. He also said that, in terms of fuel economy, the hybrid won't do well on the high speed autobahns.

I think perhaps there might be some other factors in play here. First of all, I am under the impression that the EU won't allow Japan to sell more of their cars in the EU than the number of cars the Japanese will allow the EU to sell in Japan. Secondly, EU requirements for air pollution control devices in automobiles and EU air quality standards are not as stringent as those in the US - meaning, the "dirtier" diesel is easier to sell in Europe than in the US.

So, is it safe to say that in Germany, and perhaps the rest of the EU, the hybrid can't compete with diesel-powered vehicles?

I would appreciate any comments.

Thanks

[bwilson4web]

There are several advantages of a hybrid that are not in current diesels:

1) regenerative braking - not to drive this way all of the time, it does avoid burning energy
2) eliminate idle fuel burn at all speeds - the hybrid turns off the engine even at speed and 'no fuel' is less than diesel idle fuel burn
3) surge power - a diesel (or gas vehicle) has to have an engine sized for the worst-case power even though these are infrequent events and the hybrid can use a smaller engine

The hybrid does not care if the heat engine is gas, diesel or any other energy source. What it does is bring the tremendous flexibility of electric power to complement and correct the limitations of heat engines.

Bob Wilson

[bwilson4web]

There are several advantages of a hybrid that are not in current diesels:

1) regenerative braking - not to drive this way all of the time, it does avoid burning energy
2) eliminate idle fuel burn at all speeds - the hybrid turns off the engine even at speed and 'no fuel' is less than diesel idle fuel burn
3) surge power - a diesel (or gas vehicle) has to have an engine sized for the worst-case power even though these are infrequent events and the hybrid can use a smaller engine

The hybrid does not care if the heat engine is gas, diesel or any other energy source. What it does is bring the tremendous flexibility of electric power to complement and correct the limitations of heat engines.

Bob Wilson

[madler]

Yes, diesels get better mileage (even after you take into account the fact that diesel fuel is denser), and hybrids provide little to no benefit at constant, high speed (gas or diesel).

While diesels put out less CO2 per mile, they put out more of other pollutants. As a result, they tend to not be as common in automobiles in the US, especially in places like California with very strict emission laws. There are solutions to that though, so ...

What you'd like ideally is a hybrid using a clean diesel engine for the ICE.

Yes, hybrids can compete in Europe, if they're diesel. Peugot is now saying that they will be producing a diesel hybrid. I'm sure more will follow.

[tripp]

Also, EU fuel taxes greatly favor diesel over petrol so there is no saving from driving a hybrid.

[Tideland Prius]

At high speeds, a diesel fairs well. A hybrid performs like a normal car with that same engine size (i.e. the Prius is more or less giving back mileage like a 1.5 litre car.. almost like a 1.5 litre car)

[skandale]

Diesel cars sell like crazy in Europe nowdays.
In Norway, diesel is more or less 10% cheaper than petrol. In Sweden, the diesel costs more or less the same at petrol. Diesels still sells like crazy. The diesel cars normally use less fuel than normal petrol cars, and can sometimes compete with the Prius.

The main advantage for the Prius, environmeltally speaking, comes in stop-and-go traffic where the engine stops. But there are some things to consider about pollution. The modern diesels have particle filters for catch a lot of the pollution from the cars. And the diesel in Europe normally contain much less sulfur then the US diesel.

Yes, you still see black clouds from modern diesel cars, but it is less common than earlier. But I do believe it is important to keep all filters on those cars clean to avoid the classic clouds.

The diesel engines have become much bette in the recent years, and they now run much smoother than earlier. The best diesel engines can almost compete with good petrol engines in terms of vibration and sound.

I chose to order a Prius because I don't like the smell, vibration and sound from diesel. And of course because the Prius is a much more special car than normal diesel cars...


Stein

[gazz]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(briloop @ Aug 30 2007, 07:27 PM) [snapback]504596[/snapback]</div>

I think perhaps there might be some other factors in play here. First of all, I am under the impression that the EU won't allow Japan to sell more of their cars in the EU than the number of cars the Japanese will allow the EU to sell in Japan. Secondly, EU requirements for air pollution control devices in automobiles and EU air quality standards are not as stringent as those in the US - meaning, the "dirtier" diesel is easier to sell in Europe than in the US.

Thanks
[/b]

I am not aware of any quotas for number of cars being sold in Europe, in the UK most (Toyota, Honda, Nissan) build most of there cars in the UK. In fact cars which we once considered as British such as Ford are probably built outside the UK. So the best way to support British manufacturing can be to buy a UK built Japaneses car (although I do think the Prius is not built in the UK).

It is getting hard to justify the Prius on mpg grounds especially if you do a lot of motorway driving. In the UK we get a tax break so that helps as it is a company car. I work with people with diesels and they cannot match the mpg I get but I do have to put the effort in to get it and I do little fast road driving. I love it on the grounds of being different.

[patsparks]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bwilson4web @ Aug 31 2007, 10:25 AM) [snapback]504616[/snapback]</div>

There are several advantages of a hybrid that are not in current diesels:

1) regenerative braking - not to drive this way all of the time, it does avoid burning energy
2) eliminate idle fuel burn at all speeds - the hybrid turns off the engine even at speed and 'no fuel' is less than diesel idle fuel burn
3) surge power - a diesel (or gas vehicle) has to have an engine sized for the worst-case power even though these are infrequent events and the hybrid can use a smaller engine

The hybrid does not care if the heat engine is gas, diesel or any other energy source. What it does is bring the tremendous flexibility of electric power to complement and correct the limitations of heat engines.

Bob Wilson
[/b]

1/ Regenerative braking is already in the fuel consumption figures
2/ Idle fuel burn is already in the fuel consumption figures
3/ A 1.9 litre intercooled turbo diesel in a car the size of a Prius has lots of acceleration.
Diesels do very well on motorways, Europe is crisscrossed with motorways, particularly England. Sometimes the motorways can become long car parks but mostly they are good for high speed commuting. Some German motorways have no speed limit and diesels will run at these high speeds all day where a hybrid would struggle. Europeans wont slow down for better fuel consumption. Most people really don't care about emissions.

An English friend of mine said he wouldn't buy a Toyota because Toyotas are "Paki cars". In other words the Pakistanis drive Toyota therefore Brits shouldn't. Of course the country town where they live the taxis are all Toyotas and all the taxi drivers are Pakistani because the owner of the taxi company is Pakistani. I hate racism.

Can you blame people in Europe wanting to buy local cars just like Americans like American cars?
Maybe it isn't Europe favouring diesel, maybe USA dissuades people from driving diesels? The US car industry don't want the hassle of making diesel cars in any number. Face it, even a lot of your trucks are petrol.
Do you think GM and Ford USA would be spreading how dirty and noisy diesels are? They wouldn't do that would they? Who was it said Hummers are more environmentally friendly than Prius? A promotional company? Who were they working for?

[gazz]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(patsparks @ Aug 31 2007, 03:40 AM) [snapback]504774[/snapback]</div>

An English friend of mine said he wouldn't buy a Toyota because Toyotas are "Paki cars". In other words the Pakistanis drive Toyota therefore Brits shouldn't. Of course the country town where they live the taxis are all Toyotas and all the taxi drivers are Pakistani because the owner of the taxi company is Pakistani. I hate racism.


[/b]

Never come across any issues with Brits not buying Toyota's on the grounds you mention. Like Honda they are considered very good quality cars, their problem has been they are not so leading edge on style and they are undercut on price. Also get the impression that they are happy to sell slightly less but at a slightly higher profit margin. Also they never had diesels which is now addressed as most of there new small to medium cars seem to have the diesel as the top of the range/sport model.

I love my Prius but what it is is the Hybrid side the ICE could be a diesel. In fact the ideal car for me would be a smaller Hybrid (the Prius is big in the UK) with I have to say a diesel engine.