1620 miles on a tank, 171 mpg!

[markderail]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AZTriGuy @ Sep 21 2007, 05:22 PM) [snapback]515943[/snapback]</div>

Good lord, according to the link for Hybrids Plus, the conversion costs $32,000, car not included? Wow, I would think that would be seriously cost prohibitive. I mean, between the Prius and the conversion you've just spent nearly $60k on the car. I'm sorry, this just doesn't seem to make much sense at that cost?
[/b]

The ZAP car that can do highway speeds, has no ICE, and a 30-40 mile range, the cost for the BASIC model is 60K$.

Now, comparing apples-to-apples as much as possible :
- Base Prius in US$ is 21k
- Cost of conversion in US$ 32K for EV-30
- Cost of a "backup" ICE when the battery is low *zero*
- AC & heater for winter included, option on the Zap!
- Electric doors & locks included, option on the Zap!
- Seats confortably 5 adults, Zap! only 4
Prius PHEV - 53K$, Zap! - 60K$

Sorry AZTriGuy - The Prius PHEV Is The Winner !!!

The *true* competition will be GM's Volt that has a true generator ICE and base EV-30.

GM wants the Volt priced at below 30K$, so let's say 29,995. That's possibly for sale after 2010. This gives Toyota 2 more R & D years, and will profit from whatever battery technology out there.

BUT if GM manages this feat, oh boy, paying upfront 8K$ to be free from oil/gas possibly for the next 20 years or rusts to oblivion? Will be hard to top that. I have lots of friends that pay over 2,500$ a year in gas.

[Danny Hamilton]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Davide Andrea @ Sep 21 2007, 03:47 PM) [snapback]515933[/snapback]</div>

"... then the cost of the elec. is irrelevant."
It is. The cost of conversion is astronomical, so any economic analysis is moot.
[/b]

Not so much an economic analysis as a curiosity. Obviously there is more to the decision to convert the Prius to a PHEV than savings in fuels costs. Just like there is more to the decision to purchase a Prius than the savings in fuel costs. I'm not trying to justify the conversion costs by offsetting them in fuel savings. I'm just curious as to was the fuel cost is.

The information on total fuel cost is just as interesting as the information on mpg (more-so actually), and the mpg number was offered without any caveat as the futility of economic analysis. If I live and work less than 20 miles from home, and all my shopping is between the two, and I never take any long trips, I theoretically could get infinite miles on a tank and infinite mpg with that converted prius, making his 171 mpg and 1620 miles on a tank meaningless, and yet you throw an exclamation point after it as though it is some major accomplishment.

If the information on his charging costs aren't available, that's fine, but while the cost of the elec. is irrelevant with regards to the use of fossil fuel and CO2 production, it is not irrelevant to those of us who find the concept of PHEV conversion of a Prius interesting.

[miscrms]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(paulccullen @ Sep 21 2007, 05:01 PM) [snapback]515953[/snapback]</div>

Excellent point, and this has been a pet peeve of mine in PHEV eficiency claims. Technical people should know better. Leave the misleading info and hyperbole to the marketing weasels.

In order to measure PHEV energy consumption, we really need a new "hybrid" unit of measurement which expresses gallons *and* kilowatt hours over a given distance. Or maybe two separate measurements, X and Y

• At fully charged startup it's rated at X miles per kwh (no fuel used)
• After 30 miles (or when the stored electricity is all used up), it's rated at Y miles per gallon

Does this sound like a better approach?
[/b]

I think you miss the point. You assume all fuels are created equal. Most PHEV interest is centered around one of two concerns; reducing foreign oil dependence, and second reducing CO2 and other emissions. The PHEV makes a huge difference with regards to the first item regardless of the source of electricity. If the electricity is generated cleanly the PHEV also makes a huge impact in the second regard. A PHEV is probably not much more inherently efficient than its HEV counterpart (although electric battery/motor is more efficient than ICE), the important thing is it shifts the source of its energy to a more desirable one.

For the first crowd, MPG is the ultimate answer as gas comes from overseas, coal comes from home. For the second crowd, a better measure would be something like lbs CO2/mi, or g NOx/mi. If a standard 50mpg Prius produces 0.37 lbs CO2 per mile, a 167 mpg PHEV Prius recharged on clean power only produces 0.112 lbs per mile.

Source for Prius CO2: http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/ve...ls.asp?id=10982

Rob

[miscrms]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AZTriGuy @ Sep 21 2007, 04:22 PM) [snapback]515943[/snapback]</div>

Good lord, according to the link for Hybrids Plus, the conversion costs $32,000, car not included? Wow, I would think that would be seriously cost prohibitive. I mean, between the Prius and the conversion you've just spent nearly $60k on the car. I'm sorry, this just doesn't seem to make much sense at that cost?
[/b]

Yup, its not cheap! How much would it cost you to buy a mid-size sedan and turn it into a 50/60 mpg hybrid in your garage? This is about the equivalent of what these folks have done in the absence of any signs of leadership on this front from the big automakers. These pioneers got fed up with the automakers saying it can't be done, no one wants it, and decided to prove them wrong. The automakers are finally sitting up and taking notice, so I'd say they are achieving their goal.

If Joe-Schmoe in his garage can take something this complex and design it, build it, test it, make it safe and reliable, and then recoup his design cost plus the inflated cost of small volume materials putting these into only a few tens or hundreds of vehicles.... Just imagine what Toyota or GM could do if they put their mind to it.

In the mean time, the pioneers and early adopters have borne the cost of pushing the auto industry and government to do what they should have been doing already. With the 70/80mpg hybrids the big three had developed with the government 10-15 years ago, PHEVs should already be common place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partnership_f...ion_of_Vehicles

Rob

[tochatihu]

I salute the new record, but doubt it will stand for long

WA state appears to be 3/4 hydro, so there's your 'rain power'.

I expect the time will come when PHEV conversion costs $2 or 3 thousand. Those buyers will owe some debt of gratitude to today's pioneers, now ocassionally being derided.

However, I'd also like to see these PHEV drivers doing even earlier transaxle fluid changes than conventional Prius. Nag nag nag.

[statultra]

damn 1620 miles is almost like changing oil

[tballx]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Davide Andrea @ Sep 21 2007, 01:47 PM) [snapback]515933[/snapback]</div>

I understand that Seattle uses mostly hydro-electricity.
It is. The cost of conversion is astronomical, so any economic analysis is moot.
He charges at home and at work, and his commute distance is 30 freeway miles each way.
[/b]

About 80% of our power comes from hydro another 9% comes from nuclear, another 8% from coal and another 3% from other sources such as wind.

[darelldd]

My Rav4EV has 49,000 miles on the odometer. And I haven't put a single gallon of gas in it yet. What do I win?

I mean this is all very exciting and all... and eventually I guess we'll get back to where we were... uh... 11 years ago with pure EVs. Will make the "how many miles per energy unit" calculation much easier too! Oh, and my new car cost about as much as this Prius conversion.... JUST the conversion.

And just for the record (or should I save this for my acceptance speach?) all the fuel for my EV is made via PV panels on my garage roof.

[bwilson4web]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Sep 21 2007, 11:09 PM) [snapback]516065[/snapback]</div>

My Rav4EV has 49,000 miles on the odometer. And I haven't put a single gallon of gas in it yet. What do I win?
. . .
[/b]

A Sterling powered, range extender, generator trailer?

We need reasonably affordable, high efficiency transportation and I don't really care by what means. Super-duper diesel? Ultra-lean, direct injection gas? Whisky in the tank-o? Foolish cell technology?

The one thing I know doesn't work is Power Point powered vehicles. We've seen enough of them to fuel a Stanley steamer around the Washington Beltway a dozen times. What counts is getting rubber rolling on roads.

Bob Wilson