fried ECUs on recall service

galaxee · 11-05-2005, 09:00 PM

I was under the impression that fried ECUs were the fault of the tech performing the service when I first read about this issue on PriusChat. I brought it up to my husband when he got home tonight and actually heard the story behind it, and I thought I'd share.

It all starts with a scantool software upgrade. Apparently when upgrades are first released they're not supposed to be used for ECU reprogramming, until the final version is released. Seems that the final version still had some ECU reprogramming bug in it and for a week or so techs across the country were frying ECUs left and right. It just causes a drop in communications between scantool and ECU, effectively rendering the ECU lifeless. There is no problem with the actual upgrade, the scantool software was the problem here.

This bug has been fixed for now by reverting back to the previous software version, and hubby's shop has done a number of reprograms successfully. However, this leaves Toyota with a whole lot of ECUs to come up with and a lot of unhappy owners.

Talk about a bad time to drop the ball...

seasalsa · 11-05-2005, 09:09 PM

Thanks galaxee.
I have had my notification letter for 2 weeks waiting for the tech's to get a few under their belts before I take mine in for the recall.

How's that for an excuse for my procrastination?

bigdaddy · 11-05-2005, 09:26 PM

Y'know, this has me thinking about the scantools, and eventually box-to-box communication itself. Computers talkin to computers: 0, one or both of them having problems. Seems like as more and more devices have computers built in, they should be able to be more tolerant of the errors of the other. On the other hand, humans have the same problem: I still have a heck of a time understanding what my 4-year-old is saying, she speaks so darn fast...

rick57 · 11-05-2005, 11:29 PM

So you can use the new software now,galaxee? Yesterday I spoke with one of my FTS's and he said to use the previous version software till they find out for sure if it is a software bug or techs causing the ECU's being taken out. I update our scan tools and they are still at the previous version, so we have had no problems with the reflashes.

galaxee · 11-05-2005, 11:43 PM

ha, just asked hubby and he told me the bug was "fixed" by reverting to the old software. so no, the new software's not working yet from the way it sounds.

guess i'll go back and edit that original post- must have heard him wrong

DanMan32 · 11-10-2005, 04:43 PM

The ECUs should have locked boot code that would always accept a load, even if the main SW was dead. Thats the way mother board bios' are designed these days. Many network appliances are too.

jayman · 11-10-2005, 06:59 PM

A similar issue exists with embedded industrial sensors and controllers that run Foundation FieldBus. A very rare but reproducible set of circumstances can trigger toasted firmware, necessitating replacement:

One of the devices on the Foundation FieldBus Segment must be activated as a Backup LAS (Link Active Scheduler, set to a "typical" network address of 16). If you don't configure the segment to have a Backup LAS the error won't happen. Normally, the Link Master will automatically assign addresses to the segment as new devices (Sensors, valve positioners, etc) are hot-plugged into the segment.

In normal operating conditions, if the segment should lose communication with the Link Master in the control room or MCC, all segment activity is taken over by the backup LAS. This is entirely "bumpless" and the process continues to run.

Each device has a DD (Device Descriptor) file that is analogous to a driver for new hardware - eg a scanner or a printer - under Windows. The DD contains metadata compliant with IEC 61804-2 which is an international standard for bus-networked devices in industrial process control. In particular DD is compliant with EDDL (Electronic Device Description Language).

The DD files can be updated while the process is live. Normally you don’t have to update DD files but say the vendor introduces new FB’s (Function Block) or other new features, or maybe a hot fix. So imagine for whatever reason you then push the updated DD files into your Foundation FieldBus segments.

Here is how to purposely destroy a backup LAS device: Push the updated DD file to the device designated as your Backup LAS and at the same time, have a power fail or disconnect the segment cable. Not impossible, especially a momentary power glitch they happen all the time in industrial plants.

That precise moment, while you are pushing an updated DD to the Backup LAS device, and you momentarily lose communications, the firmware in that Backup LAS is done. Toast. You then have no choice but to put in a new device.

I haven’t had it happen to me – yet – but some of my peers and co-workers have had it happen.

I wonder what happens to the THHT if the CANBus dongle isn’t properly seated to the THHT cable, or if the THHT has a momentary power glitch? Very rare but I will bet it happens.

FBear · 11-11-2005, 02:01 PM

I just got the recall notice last night and after reading these posts you guys have scared the s***t out of me. I am not sure I want them messing with the ECU as it seems to be working just fine with the original firmware installed. I will wait a couple of weeks to lets them sort out the problems and by then I will also need the 15K scheduled service.

galaxee · 11-13-2005, 11:39 PM

<BUMP>

Seems there are a lot of people speculating as to why their cars are still in the shop after the recall...

Thought I'd bring this back up to the top again.

Drifter · 11-15-2005, 09:28 AM

I just dropped my prius off for its 10,000 mile oil change and the recall/SSC. When I asked the person writing up my order if they had everything straightened out about the software bug frying ECUs while performing the recall he gave me a strange look and said he'd never heard anything like that. So right now my fingers are crossed hoping Toyota keeps the techs more informed than they do the service writers. Talking to the tech wasn't so much of an option since the dealership is a very busy one and I had to get to work. I'm sure they know what they are doing much more than I would, I just wonder how good communication is within the company and how much better service we'd get if all of the techs and service writers spent 15 or 30 minutes on priuschat every day.

11-05-2005, 09:00 PM	#1
galaxee resident lab rat Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: boilermaker territory Posts: 9,676 My Car: 2005 Prius Model: N/A Package: #5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 94 Times in 37 Posts Friends: 26	I was under the impression that fried ECUs were the fault of the tech performing the service when I first read about this issue on PriusChat. I brought it up to my husband when he got home tonight and actually heard the story behind it, and I thought I'd share. It all starts with a scantool software upgrade. Apparently when upgrades are first released they're not supposed to be used for ECU reprogramming, until the final version is released. Seems that the final version still had some ECU reprogramming bug in it and for a week or so techs across the country were frying ECUs left and right. It just causes a drop in communications between scantool and ECU, effectively rendering the ECU lifeless. There is no problem with the actual upgrade, the scantool software was the problem here. This bug has been fixed for now by reverting back to the previous software version, and hubby's shop has done a number of reprograms successfully. However, this leaves Toyota with a whole lot of ECUs to come up with and a lot of unhappy owners. Talk about a bad time to drop the ball... __________________ black 2005 prius, a few mods that make me happy g: class of '09 in intense science DH: class of '09 in medical equipment hoping to discover the 'reward' part of the sacrifice-reward cycle soon!

11-10-2005, 06:59 PM	#7
jayman Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Winnipeg Manitoba Posts: 11,576 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: Package: B Thanks: 35 Thanked 188 Times in 171 Posts Friends: 12	A similar issue exists with embedded industrial sensors and controllers that run Foundation FieldBus. A very rare but reproducible set of circumstances can trigger toasted firmware, necessitating replacement: One of the devices on the Foundation FieldBus Segment must be activated as a Backup LAS (Link Active Scheduler, set to a "typical" network address of 16). If you don't configure the segment to have a Backup LAS the error won't happen. Normally, the Link Master will automatically assign addresses to the segment as new devices (Sensors, valve positioners, etc) are hot-plugged into the segment. In normal operating conditions, if the segment should lose communication with the Link Master in the control room or MCC, all segment activity is taken over by the backup LAS. This is entirely "bumpless" and the process continues to run. Each device has a DD (Device Descriptor) file that is analogous to a driver for new hardware - eg a scanner or a printer - under Windows. The DD contains metadata compliant with IEC 61804-2 which is an international standard for bus-networked devices in industrial process control. In particular DD is compliant with EDDL (Electronic Device Description Language). The DD files can be updated while the process is live. Normally you don’t have to update DD files but say the vendor introduces new FB’s (Function Block) or other new features, or maybe a hot fix. So imagine for whatever reason you then push the updated DD files into your Foundation FieldBus segments. Here is how to purposely destroy a backup LAS device: Push the updated DD file to the device designated as your Backup LAS and at the same time, have a power fail or disconnect the segment cable. Not impossible, especially a momentary power glitch they happen all the time in industrial plants. That precise moment, while you are pushing an updated DD to the Backup LAS device, and you momentarily lose communications, the firmware in that Backup LAS is done. Toast. You then have no choice but to put in a new device. I haven’t had it happen to me – yet – but some of my peers and co-workers have had it happen. I wonder what happens to the THHT if the CANBus dongle isn’t properly seated to the THHT cable, or if the THHT has a momentary power glitch? Very rare but I will bet it happens. __________________ 2007 Toyota FJ Cruiser 5AT "C", Sun Fusion

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11-05-2005, 09:09 PM	#2
seasalsa Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Kent, WA Posts: 1,202 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: Package: #2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post Friends: 0	Thanks galaxee. I have had my notification letter for 2 weeks waiting for the tech's to get a few under their belts before I take mine in for the recall. How's that for an excuse for my procrastination?

11-05-2005, 09:26 PM	#3
bigdaddy Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Duluth Georgia Posts: 992 My Car: Model: Package: Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	Y'know, this has me thinking about the scantools, and eventually box-to-box communication itself. Computers talkin to computers: 0, one or both of them having problems. Seems like as more and more devices have computers built in, they should be able to be more tolerant of the errors of the other. On the other hand, humans have the same problem: I still have a heck of a time understanding what my 4-year-old is saying, she speaks so darn fast...

11-05-2005, 11:29 PM	#4
rick57 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Circleville, Ohio Posts: 565 My Car: Other Non-Hybrid Model: Package: N/A Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 1	So you can use the new software now,galaxee? Yesterday I spoke with one of my FTS's and he said to use the previous version software till they find out for sure if it is a software bug or techs causing the ECU's being taken out. I update our scan tools and they are still at the previous version, so we have had no problems with the reflashes.

11-05-2005, 11:43 PM	#5
galaxee resident lab rat Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: boilermaker territory Posts: 9,676 My Car: 2005 Prius Model: N/A Package: #5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 94 Times in 37 Posts Friends: 26	ha, just asked hubby and he told me the bug was "fixed" by reverting to the old software. so no, the new software's not working yet from the way it sounds. guess i'll go back and edit that original post- must have heard him wrong

11-10-2005, 04:43 PM	#6
DanMan32 Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Tampa Bay, FL Posts: 3,775 My Car: Model: Package: Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	The ECUs should have locked boot code that would always accept a load, even if the main SW was dead. Thats the way mother board bios' are designed these days. Many network appliances are too.

11-11-2005, 02:01 PM	#8
FBear Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Maplewood, NJ Posts: 303 My Car: 2005 Prius Model: Package: #3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts Friends: 0	I just got the recall notice last night and after reading these posts you guys have scared the s***t out of me. I am not sure I want them messing with the ECU as it seems to be working just fine with the original firmware installed. I will wait a couple of weeks to lets them sort out the problems and by then I will also need the 15K scheduled service.

11-13-2005, 11:39 PM	#9
galaxee resident lab rat Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: boilermaker territory Posts: 9,676 My Car: 2005 Prius Model: N/A Package: #5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 94 Times in 37 Posts Friends: 26	<BUMP> Seems there are a lot of people speculating as to why their cars are still in the shop after the recall... Thought I'd bring this back up to the top again.

11-15-2005, 09:28 AM	#10
Drifter Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: chicago area Posts: 99 My Car: Model: Package: Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	I just dropped my prius off for its 10,000 mile oil change and the recall/SSC. When I asked the person writing up my order if they had everything straightened out about the software bug frying ECUs while performing the recall he gave me a strange look and said he'd never heard anything like that. So right now my fingers are crossed hoping Toyota keeps the techs more informed than they do the service writers. Talking to the tech wasn't so much of an option since the dealership is a very busy one and I had to get to work. I'm sure they know what they are doing much more than I would, I just wonder how good communication is within the company and how much better service we'd get if all of the techs and service writers spent 15 or 30 minutes on priuschat every day.