High Na level in oil resolved

jayman · 01-14-2006, 12:33 PM

You folks may recall about 1-2 months ago I posted the results of a UOA (Used Oil Analysis) on my 2004 Prius. I had run Mobil 1 0W-30 for a bit over 8,000km, and the wear metals were remarkably low. The TBN was still +7, so the oil was clearly good for much longer intervals.

The only concern was a high Na level, around 78 ppm. A "normal" reading would be under 20 ppm. I followed up with another UOA at half-interval (4,000km) and the Na was 15 ppm. ?? That didn't make any sense.

I then managed to talk the dealer into filling the 120ml sample bottle with their bulk Mystery Oil 5W-30 from the tote bin dispenser system. I had the results back almost a month ago, but was in China on business, and then had to deal with a family tragedy.

Long story short: the dealer oil, which the car ran on for the first two oil changes, had a virgin Na level of 398 ppm! The testing lab had quite a few issues with that oil, including a bit of moisture, some dirt, Fe (Iron), and even some sulfur. Clearly, this is a VERY poor quality oil.

This turned into a wild goose chase for me. The testing lab naturally assumed a slow coolant seep, but the usual indicators were not there. After chasing some dead ends, including a few VOA of Mobil 1, they suggested I try to get a sample of the oil previously used.

This is another lesson of why empirical data is all that counts. You can’t depend on “gut feeling” or “I heard from my pappy” or whatever. You need cold hard numbers ie data. To think some folks probably trust the oil put in their car because “it has to be good.”

MarinJohn · 01-14-2006, 12:35 PM

Jay welcome back.

DaveinOlyWA · 01-14-2006, 12:53 PM

you mean the stock oil from Toyota is bad?? i am getting Castrol Syntec 5-20 i believe...should i change?

tochatihu · 01-14-2006, 01:05 PM

Sorry you had to do all the legwork, Jayman. There may be a good lesson here for those who leave engine oil decisions to others.

Frank Hudon · 01-14-2006, 01:11 PM

Glad to have you back Jayman Sorry for to hear of the loss of your mother.

man was that good quality bulk oil. That's almost a law suite right there. And people ask my all the time "why do you use that expensive synthetic oil" need I say more.

DaveinOlyWA · 01-14-2006, 01:15 PM

i hear ya Frank, i may just go to synthetic and double my intervals

jayman · 01-14-2006, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MarinJohn@Jan 14 2006, 12:35 PM
Jay welcome back.

[snapback]189836[/snapback]

John:

Thank you, it’s good to be back. I needed the quiet introspective time with family. Now I can go back to being an introverted mean Type A workaholic.

Jay

jayman · 01-14-2006, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveinOlyWA@Jan 14 2006, 12:53 PM
you mean the stock oil from Toyota is bad?? i am getting Castrol Syntec 5-20 i believe...should i change?

[snapback]189853[/snapback]

Hi Dave:

Yep, that's exactly what I mean. There really is no such thing as "Toyota" oil, with the bulk lube dispenser system it's whatever bulk oil dealer that claims to meet minimum API specs.

Here is an example of an automated shop lube dispersant system:

http://www.benfordfueling.com/shop/page305.html

Jay

jayman · 01-14-2006, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Frank Hudon@Jan 14 2006, 01:11 PM
Glad to have you back Jayman Sorry for to hear of the loss of your mother.
man was that good quality bulk oil. That's almost a law suite right there. And people ask my all the time "why do you use that expensive synthetic oil" need I say more.

[snapback]189870[/snapback]

Frank:

Thanks. You've "been there and done that" at least I didn't have to watch somebody linger for years.

Oh I doubt there is any grounds for a lawsuit. That crap they were using probably barely met minimum API requirements.

Perhaps that is why some folks complained of sludged-up motors, with oil as lousy as this garbage was, no wonder.

Jay

jayman · 01-14-2006, 05:08 PM

Oops.

Thanks to the forum member for actually asking me *what* the results were. Sorry, I claim Junior Alzheimers.

All results in ppm, except water which is %. The numbers the lab flagged as out of range have an asterisk.

Toyota Bulk 5W-30, at dispenser point:

*Fe 7*
Cr 0
Mo 127
Al 4
Cu 0
Pb 0
Sn 0
Si 6
*Na 398*
Zn 686
K 9

Water 0.8%

The lab comments: "Urgent levels of Na detected. Na reading is unacceptably high for a new oil. Particle count also unacceptably high. Su detected. Possible contamination of bulk oil system, recommend investigating distributor of bulk oil, inspection of bulk oil dispensing system, and filtration of bulk oil at point of use.”

I've seen the tote bin that holds the mystery oil, it's a poly tank so it can't rust. The Fe must be from the bulk distributor.

Scary.

01-14-2006, 12:33 PM	#1
jayman Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Winnipeg Manitoba Posts: 11,576 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: Package: B Thanks: 35 Thanked 189 Times in 171 Posts Friends: 12	You folks may recall about 1-2 months ago I posted the results of a UOA (Used Oil Analysis) on my 2004 Prius. I had run Mobil 1 0W-30 for a bit over 8,000km, and the wear metals were remarkably low. The TBN was still +7, so the oil was clearly good for much longer intervals. The only concern was a high Na level, around 78 ppm. A "normal" reading would be under 20 ppm. I followed up with another UOA at half-interval (4,000km) and the Na was 15 ppm. ?? That didn't make any sense. I then managed to talk the dealer into filling the 120ml sample bottle with their bulk Mystery Oil 5W-30 from the tote bin dispenser system. I had the results back almost a month ago, but was in China on business, and then had to deal with a family tragedy. Long story short: the dealer oil, which the car ran on for the first two oil changes, had a virgin Na level of 398 ppm! The testing lab had quite a few issues with that oil, including a bit of moisture, some dirt, Fe (Iron), and even some sulfur. Clearly, this is a VERY poor quality oil. This turned into a wild goose chase for me. The testing lab naturally assumed a slow coolant seep, but the usual indicators were not there. After chasing some dead ends, including a few VOA of Mobil 1, they suggested I try to get a sample of the oil previously used. This is another lesson of why empirical data is all that counts. You can’t depend on “gut feeling” or “I heard from my pappy” or whatever. You need cold hard numbers ie data. To think some folks probably trust the oil put in their car because “it has to be good.” __________________ 2007 Toyota FJ Cruiser 5AT "C", Sun Fusion

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01-14-2006, 12:35 PM	#2
MarinJohn Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,330 My Car: Model: Package: Thanks: 399 Thanked 77 Times in 44 Posts Friends: 7	Jay welcome back.

01-14-2006, 12:53 PM	#3
DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: South Puget Sound, WA Posts: 12,382 My Car: 2010 Prius Model: IV Package: Solar Roof Thanks: 24 Thanked 122 Times in 104 Posts Friends: 10	you mean the stock oil from Toyota is bad?? i am getting Castrol Syntec 5-20 i believe...should i change?

01-14-2006, 01:05 PM	#4
tochatihu Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Kunming Yunnan China Posts: 2,413 My Car: 2001 Prius Model: Package: Pioneer #1 Thanks: 1 Thanked 39 Times in 39 Posts Friends: 14	Sorry you had to do all the legwork, Jayman. There may be a good lesson here for those who leave engine oil decisions to others.

01-14-2006, 01:11 PM	#5
Frank Hudon Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 4,144 My Car: Model: Package: Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	Glad to have you back Jayman Sorry for to hear of the loss of your mother. man was that good quality bulk oil. That's almost a law suite right there. And people ask my all the time "why do you use that expensive synthetic oil" need I say more.

01-14-2006, 01:15 PM	#6
DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: South Puget Sound, WA Posts: 12,382 My Car: 2010 Prius Model: IV Package: Solar Roof Thanks: 24 Thanked 122 Times in 104 Posts Friends: 10	i hear ya Frank, i may just go to synthetic and double my intervals

01-14-2006, 05:08 PM	#10
jayman Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Winnipeg Manitoba Posts: 11,576 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: Package: B Thanks: 35 Thanked 189 Times in 171 Posts Friends: 12	Oops. Thanks to the forum member for actually asking me what the results were. Sorry, I claim Junior Alzheimers. All results in ppm, except water which is %. The numbers the lab flagged as out of range have an asterisk. Toyota Bulk 5W-30, at dispenser point: Fe 7 Cr 0 Mo 127 Al 4 Cu 0 Pb 0 Sn 0 Si 6 Na 398 Zn 686 K 9 Water 0.8% The lab comments: "Urgent levels of Na detected. Na reading is unacceptably high for a new oil. Particle count also unacceptably high. Su detected. Possible contamination of bulk oil system, recommend investigating distributor of bulk oil, inspection of bulk oil dispensing system, and filtration of bulk oil at point of use.” I've seen the tote bin that holds the mystery oil, it's a poly tank so it can't rust. The Fe must be from the bulk distributor. Scary.