Taking Bets on the real cause of my CEL - Updated

Tempus · 07-26-2006, 10:08 PM

Ok, maybe third time's the charm.

After an oil overfill I got the notorious P3191 Failed to Start code. So, they fixed the oil level and (theoretically) cleaned the intake runners.

Within two days the CEL was back. This time they diagnosed an Evap code (4xx, I'll get it exactly next trip in), and replaced the Charcoal Canister, which supposedly had a leak, and the purge valve P/N 25860-21060 Valve Assy, Vacuum.

Now, two days of driving later, the CEL is back.

Any bets?

Tempus · 07-27-2006, 07:15 PM

Well, still interesting.

To keep it all in one place, my first CEL report is Here and the second one is Here.

For the record the code on the second visit was

P0446 Evaporative Emission Control System Vent Control Circuit Malfunction

And, it was the same this time.

I'll give this visit Chronologically

0:00-0:15 - They tell me the Code and that they're replacing the CCV Valve

0:15-0:30 - Still throwing the Code - Now two techs are hovering over it.

0:30-0:45 - Three techs. They are now more 'milling' than 'hovering'

0:45-1:00 - Three techs and the Shop Supervisor (also a hybrid tech).

1:00 - Word comes out that they have decided to do a "Smoke Test" to look for leaks.

1:30 - Smoke Test apparently continues except now it's on the rack and the herd (pack, gaggle What do you call a bunch of techs anyway?) is now underneath with many lights.

1:45 - Primary Tech comes looking deep in thought to catch a smoke, and I ask what's up? He says the Fuel System is at atmospheric pressure and it won't go up. He also says something like "In the second stage of the Evap test cycle it's Drawing Vacuum way too fast". I know better than to ask for further explanations, because his diagnostic circuits are clearly overloaded.

2:00 - I receive word that they have "California on the Line"

2:30 - Wandering the lot I see them pull out a 'classic' MR2. I go over to look at it, and notice that the directional tires are pointed the wrong way. The Service Manager wanders by, and I point it out to him. They pull the MR2 back in

3:00 - The Service Writer tracks me down looking sheepish. He says "Now, this is coming from California. They say that your Gas Cap seal isn't good and you need a new Gas Cap" I refrain from mentioning that I had asked about that a couple of times over the course of this adventure. He knows that. They don't have a Gas Cap so they'll order me one.

Ok, so, what odds should I give that this is the problem? Anyone have a clue?

Tempus · 07-27-2006, 07:28 PM

Oh, I forgot the Truely Sad Part.

In with the MFD showing 60.7 MPG at 207.4 Miles

Out with the MFD showing 57.3 MPG at 207.7 Miles, AND battery in the pink.

By the time the Battery was happy again, it was down to 56.7. It was only back to 57.2 by the time I got home

galaxee · 07-27-2006, 08:17 PM

gas cap does make sense given the available info. rather embarrassing on their part... happened to one of DH's coworkers a while back with a different code.

Tempus · 07-27-2006, 08:35 PM

I think Toyota should put a Spare Gas Cap in every Prius down with the Spare Tire somewhere

So, did I really need a Charcoal Canister and two valves?

Actually, I was kind of hoping they'd have to replace the whole tank. Maybe then I could get in more than 7.5-8 gallons on a fillup

Tempus · 08-11-2006, 10:54 AM

Well, they finally got the Gas Cap in and so far no code.

But, it has usually taken about a day before it comes on.

We'll see.

Is there a Prius Gas Cap shortage out there? Should I start hoarding them?

I told my Service Writer that they owed me a Toyota Baseball Cap or something for making me come back so many times.

The most amusing part though, is the ticket on billing. I first brought it in for the problem before 36K. I'm now around 38.6K and they're still working on it. But, since I'm out of the base warrantee, they flagged it as "Goodwill Warrantee" work.

I really don't care how they account for it but it would not have gone well for them if they had tried to not cover it, or get me to pay the Extended Warrantee deductible.

Technically, isn't the Gas Cap part of the Emissions System anyway? Since it's apparently so critical, I'd also argue that it should be covered under the Federal Emissions Warrantee.

So, anyone feel like giving odds on whether this is it?

Tempus · 08-15-2006, 10:26 AM

Yes, it's back.

Same as before. About 80 miles and it's on again.

The pool is still open

galaxee · 08-15-2006, 11:50 AM

d'oh! that sucks. i'll see if i can't get some info from DH sometime soon.

galaxee · 08-15-2006, 09:57 PM

may be a very line leak- a tiny o-ring or the like.

have you called the customer experience number yet to document this? DH will ask the customer's permission to drive the car for 100ish miles before returning the car, to be sure that the problem is fixed.

they should have started with the gas cap before going the canister route, to be honest.

they need to smoke the system again and look in the network of piping near the filler neck. there's a overfill protection valve and the rollover valve. one of those may have a problem. without seeing it personally, that's his guess. he's done a couple overfill valves.

Tempus · 08-15-2006, 10:25 PM

Just went by and had them pull the code and 'ok' me to drive it. The Tech and I agree that it's in both our interests to double check the code each time just to be sure though at this point we both know what it's going to be

446 again, yep.

They're going to open a Ticket with Toyota, and work out an approach this time before I bring it back.

I don't doubt it's something small, and I still suspect it may eventually turn out to be related to the botched filler neck replacement but who knows.

I know they're as frustrated as I am though. Hopefully this time they'll run it to ground.

And yeah, I agree, they should have gone with the Gas Cap first. I told them that first thing

But, I restrained myself from commenting when they did decide to replace it. Just as well seeing as that wasn't the problem.

On the bright side, I'll soon have an entirely new fuel system to go with my new HV battery, eh?

08-15-2006, 09:57 PM	#9
galaxee resident lab rat Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: boilermaker territory Posts: 9,676 My Car: 2005 Prius Model: N/A Package: #5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 94 Times in 37 Posts Friends: 26	may be a very line leak- a tiny o-ring or the like. have you called the customer experience number yet to document this? DH will ask the customer's permission to drive the car for 100ish miles before returning the car, to be sure that the problem is fixed. they should have started with the gas cap before going the canister route, to be honest. they need to smoke the system again and look in the network of piping near the filler neck. there's a overfill protection valve and the rollover valve. one of those may have a problem. without seeing it personally, that's his guess. he's done a couple overfill valves. __________________ black 2005 prius, a few mods that make me happy g: class of '09 in intense science DH: class of '09 in medical equipment hoping to discover the 'reward' part of the sacrifice-reward cycle soon!

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07-26-2006, 10:08 PM	#1
Tempus Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington DC Posts: 1,693 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: Package: #9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	Ok, maybe third time's the charm. After an oil overfill I got the notorious P3191 Failed to Start code. So, they fixed the oil level and (theoretically) cleaned the intake runners. Within two days the CEL was back. This time they diagnosed an Evap code (4xx, I'll get it exactly next trip in), and replaced the Charcoal Canister, which supposedly had a leak, and the purge valve P/N 25860-21060 Valve Assy, Vacuum. Now, two days of driving later, the CEL is back. Any bets?

07-27-2006, 07:15 PM	#2
Tempus Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington DC Posts: 1,693 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: Package: #9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	Well, still interesting. To keep it all in one place, my first CEL report is Here and the second one is Here. For the record the code on the second visit was P0446 Evaporative Emission Control System Vent Control Circuit Malfunction And, it was the same this time. I'll give this visit Chronologically 0:00-0:15 - They tell me the Code and that they're replacing the CCV Valve 0:15-0:30 - Still throwing the Code - Now two techs are hovering over it. 0:30-0:45 - Three techs. They are now more 'milling' than 'hovering' 0:45-1:00 - Three techs and the Shop Supervisor (also a hybrid tech). 1:00 - Word comes out that they have decided to do a "Smoke Test" to look for leaks. 1:30 - Smoke Test apparently continues except now it's on the rack and the herd (pack, gaggle What do you call a bunch of techs anyway?) is now underneath with many lights. 1:45 - Primary Tech comes looking deep in thought to catch a smoke, and I ask what's up? He says the Fuel System is at atmospheric pressure and it won't go up. He also says something like "In the second stage of the Evap test cycle it's Drawing Vacuum way too fast". I know better than to ask for further explanations, because his diagnostic circuits are clearly overloaded. 2:00 - I receive word that they have "California on the Line" 2:30 - Wandering the lot I see them pull out a 'classic' MR2. I go over to look at it, and notice that the directional tires are pointed the wrong way. The Service Manager wanders by, and I point it out to him. They pull the MR2 back in 3:00 - The Service Writer tracks me down looking sheepish. He says "Now, this is coming from California. They say that your Gas Cap seal isn't good and you need a new Gas Cap" I refrain from mentioning that I had asked about that a couple of times over the course of this adventure. He knows that. They don't have a Gas Cap so they'll order me one. Ok, so, what odds should I give that this is the problem? Anyone have a clue?

07-27-2006, 07:28 PM	#3
Tempus Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington DC Posts: 1,693 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: Package: #9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	Oh, I forgot the Truely Sad Part. In with the MFD showing 60.7 MPG at 207.4 Miles Out with the MFD showing 57.3 MPG at 207.7 Miles, AND battery in the pink. By the time the Battery was happy again, it was down to 56.7. It was only back to 57.2 by the time I got home

07-27-2006, 08:17 PM	#4
galaxee resident lab rat Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: boilermaker territory Posts: 9,676 My Car: 2005 Prius Model: N/A Package: #5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 94 Times in 37 Posts Friends: 26	gas cap does make sense given the available info. rather embarrassing on their part... happened to one of DH's coworkers a while back with a different code.

07-27-2006, 08:35 PM	#5
Tempus Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington DC Posts: 1,693 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: Package: #9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	I think Toyota should put a Spare Gas Cap in every Prius down with the Spare Tire somewhere So, did I really need a Charcoal Canister and two valves? Actually, I was kind of hoping they'd have to replace the whole tank. Maybe then I could get in more than 7.5-8 gallons on a fillup

08-11-2006, 10:54 AM	#6
Tempus Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington DC Posts: 1,693 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: Package: #9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	Well, they finally got the Gas Cap in and so far no code. But, it has usually taken about a day before it comes on. We'll see. Is there a Prius Gas Cap shortage out there? Should I start hoarding them? I told my Service Writer that they owed me a Toyota Baseball Cap or something for making me come back so many times. The most amusing part though, is the ticket on billing. I first brought it in for the problem before 36K. I'm now around 38.6K and they're still working on it. But, since I'm out of the base warrantee, they flagged it as "Goodwill Warrantee" work. I really don't care how they account for it but it would not have gone well for them if they had tried to not cover it, or get me to pay the Extended Warrantee deductible. Technically, isn't the Gas Cap part of the Emissions System anyway? Since it's apparently so critical, I'd also argue that it should be covered under the Federal Emissions Warrantee. So, anyone feel like giving odds on whether this is it?

08-15-2006, 10:26 AM	#7
Tempus Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington DC Posts: 1,693 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: Package: #9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	Yes, it's back. Same as before. About 80 miles and it's on again. The pool is still open

08-15-2006, 11:50 AM	#8
galaxee resident lab rat Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: boilermaker territory Posts: 9,676 My Car: 2005 Prius Model: N/A Package: #5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 94 Times in 37 Posts Friends: 26	d'oh! that sucks. i'll see if i can't get some info from DH sometime soon.

08-15-2006, 10:25 PM	#10
Tempus Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington DC Posts: 1,693 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: Package: #9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	Just went by and had them pull the code and 'ok' me to drive it. The Tech and I agree that it's in both our interests to double check the code each time just to be sure though at this point we both know what it's going to be 446 again, yep. They're going to open a Ticket with Toyota, and work out an approach this time before I bring it back. I don't doubt it's something small, and I still suspect it may eventually turn out to be related to the botched filler neck replacement but who knows. I know they're as frustrated as I am though. Hopefully this time they'll run it to ground. And yeah, I agree, they should have gone with the Gas Cap first. I told them that first thing But, I restrained myself from commenting when they did decide to replace it. Just as well seeing as that wasn't the problem. On the bright side, I'll soon have an entirely new fuel system to go with my new HV battery, eh?