What services you need and what you don't

[trife86]

Originally Posted by JimboK

Toyota was recommending it or your dealer? Read your manual for what Toyota recommends, and you'll probably find it considerably less extensive (and expensive) than $500. And of course, use this thread for further guidance. Dealers are notorious for selling standard maintenance packages that include stuff that's not needed -- or even impossible to perform on a Prius.

Additional money savers: You can save a substantial amount by changing the engine and cabin air filters yourself. Dealers are reported to have charged what I consider obscene amounts for a quick job; either can be done in about two minutes with no tools. And with just a little mechanical aptitude and a few simple tools, a Prius oil change is quite easy.

How does changing your own oil work with a existing warrenty?

[JimboK]

Originally Posted by trife86

How does changing your own oil work with a existing warrenty?

In order for Toyota to use lack of oil changes as the basis for denying a warranty claim, the claim would have to be for engine damage consistent with that and they would need to prove you didn't change the oil. Keep good records and you shouldn't have a problem. I keep all receipts for oil and filter purchases and log the date and mileage when I change them.

[jayman]

Originally Posted by trife86

How does changing your own oil work with a existing warrenty?

Or you could also do used oil analysis to give Toyota a hard time. My only regret was not doing the analysis from day 1, instead I waited until around a year of ownership when I switched to Mobil 1

I had some *very* odd readings, which I brought to the attention of Toyota Canada. They immediately blamed my use of Mobil 1 (How could they, the sample was based on the dealer oil) and suggested my engine warranty was kaput

I got Mobil involved and chased a lot of dead ends, including over $100 in oil sampling which Mobil reimbursed me. I finally snagged a virgin sample of the wonderful dealership bulk oil. That crap I wouldn't use in a 30 year old lawnmower on its last legs

Once I submitted that to Toyota, they promptly STFU

If you do ever encounter a serious engine problem, no matter what oil you use, it won't make much difference. Say a hidden casting defect that causes a catastrophic engine failure. But I wouldn't be surprised if Toyota tried to pin the failure on your oil changes

In a situation like that I would involve independent engineers, don't take Toyota's word. Like any large corp, they will try to wiggle out of responsibility. Much like the engine in my 2000 GMC Sierra going knock-knock-knock-knock, GM did SFA about it

Remember that Toyota got burned by a lawsuit from sludged motors. I doubt this was caused by their 7,500 mile oil change interval, but rather by the absolute bottom-feeder bulk oil used at most dealerships. One consequence of that lawsuit was Toyota almost universally lowering the oil change interval to 5,000 miles

If the bulk oil my dealer uses is any indicator, a 3,000 mile would be far more appropriate.

All I can suggest is to *not* stock up on oil. Only buy oil when doing the oil change, save the receipt. Make a copy of the receipt, as most stores use a thermal transfer print system that literally disappears after a couple of years. On the copy, write down the VIN, the mileage, and date.

Even if you never do used oil analysis, it wouldn't hurt to save 50-100 ml of oil from each oil change. That wouldn't take up too much space, and in the event of an issue you could have an independent lab verify engine health

[triumph1]

Jayman- do you think the junk oil that dealerships use is diferent than what the car comes with? I'd like to know because I want to change the oil in mine- I have about 700 miles on it and was debating whether to wait until 5k or do it @ 1000. Also debating whether to go to synthetic this early. I drive around 575 miles a week.

[jayman]

Originally Posted by triumph1

Jayman- do you think the junk oil that dealerships use is diferent than what the car comes with?

Well, if my FJ was any indication, I'd say the dealership crap is far different from what the factory fill is. I sampled my FJ at around 2,500 km: low TBN, high nitration, residual fuel, but no indication of sulfur or sodium

I'd guess the fact a vehicle from Japan is started, driven under 2 mins, over and over on the trip here probably accounts for the residual fuel in the crank

The dealership already knew I had sampled their wonderful bulk oil, so when I went in around 3,000 km as they suggested for a complimentary oil change, they used Valvoline from bottles. I watched, no sleight of hand here

That oil also badly sheared, and surprisingly there was nitration. Even using Mobil 1 0W-40, an oil intended to meet very severe European specs, there is still nitration. Other FJ owners who sample their oil have noted this as well. Best guess is Toyota has programmed the FJ a bit richer.

The same motor in the Tacoma and 4Runner has no evidence of this nitration. So like anything else, unless you do a lab analysis you can't be sure

[jayman]

Originally Posted by triumph1

I have about 700 miles on it and was debating whether to wait until 5k or do it @ 1000.

The Prius motor is very easy on oil. Some on this forum with 2005-2006 Prius have reported residual fuel in the oil analysis, no clear indication why.

I would wait the 5K. If you desire, you can then start a used oil analysis program to establish a baseline. One forum member, Devils Advocate, uses Amsoil 0W-30 and only changes his oil once a year or so. No issues at all

In the case of extending oil changes, or if there is any indication of trouble, the oil company will usually stand behind you. In the case of my Prius, when the oil testing uncovered issues actually caused by crap generic bulk dealership oil, Mobil stepped up and indicated they were behind me 100%

[brighamwj]

Originally Posted by jayman

Or you could also do used oil analysis to give Toyota a hard time. My only regret was not doing the analysis from day 1, instead I waited until around a year of ownership when I switched to Mobil 1

I had some *very* odd readings, which I brought to the attention of Toyota Canada. They immediately blamed my use of Mobil 1 (How could they, the sample was based on the dealer oil) and suggested my engine warranty was kaput

I got Mobil involved and chased a lot of dead ends, including over $100 in oil sampling which Mobil reimbursed me. I finally snagged a virgin sample of the wonderful dealership bulk oil. That crap I wouldn't use in a 30 year old lawnmower on its last legs

Once I submitted that to Toyota, they promptly STFU

If you do ever encounter a serious engine problem, no matter what oil you use, it won't make much difference. Say a hidden casting defect that causes a catastrophic engine failure. But I wouldn't be surprised if Toyota tried to pin the failure on your oil changes

In a situation like that I would involve independent engineers, don't take Toyota's word. Like any large corp, they will try to wiggle out of responsibility. Much like the engine in my 2000 GMC Sierra going knock-knock-knock-knock, GM did SFA about it

Remember that Toyota got burned by a lawsuit from sludged motors. I doubt this was caused by their 7,500 mile oil change interval, but rather by the absolute bottom-feeder bulk oil used at most dealerships. One consequence of that lawsuit was Toyota almost universally lowering the oil change interval to 5,000 miles

If the bulk oil my dealer uses is any indicator, a 3,000 mile would be far more appropriate.

All I can suggest is to *not* stock up on oil. Only buy oil when doing the oil change, save the receipt. Make a copy of the receipt, as most stores use a thermal transfer print system that literally disappears after a couple of years. On the copy, write down the VIN, the mileage, and date.

Even if you never do used oil analysis, it wouldn't hurt to save 50-100 ml of oil from each oil change. That wouldn't take up too much space, and in the event of an issue you could have an independent lab verify engine health

Is this for real? I have been changing my oil (valvoline 5w30) every 5 K and using a larger media (scion Xb) Toyota Filter. Have there been issues with warranty's when people have done correct changes.

I imagine with a five K change, that the engine were is going to be very insignificant. With all the bookkeeping you may as well pay 3x the price at the dealer to save the hassle and I like changing my oil.

Excellent suggestions for documentation, but have there been instances when this is necessary?

[brighamwj]

Originally Posted by galaxee

another public service announcement from your friendly tech and translator

just a list of commonly recommended services, whether they're needed and if so, when, and other useful info.

1. brake flush
may be a good idea after 100k miles/10 years. completely cleaning out the whole system is near impossible with standard brake flush equipment (mainly because the prius has almost 1 gal of brake fluid in it!) possible complications include air in brake system, damage to actuator or solenoid valves. (PS to those of you worried about rusting... the calipers are aluminum body construction with a composite plastic piston.)

2. clean/adjust rear brakes
only if you have drums (obviously in the prius, we do). ideally, for optimal brake life and performance, this is probably a good idea every 30k miles. for other cars, 15k a better idea. when you hear a tone out of the rear brakes, it's either time to change the brakes or have them cleaned/adjusted. if it's not done, you can see an increased brake wear rate (front and rear). possible complications are problems due to technician error- adjustment extremely tight can overheat a bearing. otherwise noise, brake chatter, or increased wear rate and glazing if not properly adjusted.

3. transaxle fluid
there is no way to "flush" the trans on a prius. if someone tries to sell you this, run. they can drain and fill, however. the fluid is expensive and is supposed to go 100k, but you can never go wrong changing it early. in most cases it isn't necessary. this is the same fluid that goes into a tundra for 100k under towing conditions. the only complication you might see is again due to tech error- using the wrong fluid or not filling all the way.

4. engine and inverter fluid
drain/fill is OK, but NO flushes. it's not even possible on the inverter and the engine is difficult but not impossible, however NOT recommended as it can cause serious damage to the electric water pump and switching valves. you do not need the drain/fill until your car hits 100k. if the coolant is still nice and pink, don't do it then either. again, the coolant is said to go 100k. while you're not going to do any wrong by changing it early, again it is expensive like the trans fluid. possible complications include more tech error- bleeding these systems is a PITA and getting all the air out is hard. an incomplete fill, use of the wrong coolant, can damage your car.

5. EFI or fuel injector cleaning
really not necessary until you see 100k, if you have a bad tank of gas, or if you start seeing misfires (and you'll see a check engine light when that happens.) possible problems include damage to fuel lines or connectors while disconnecting/reconnecting the adapter equipment to the system. the fuel line that you would access to hook up the adapter is directly above the exhaust manifold... NOT a place you want a leak. other possible problems could include seal failures due to pressure (rare but possible.) since it doesn't idle, most techs will get in and stomp on the gas pedal until the EFI cleaner runs its course. this leads to a condition called "blinky check engine light" which means that you have overheated your catalyst and are in serious danger of melting the insides of your catalytic converter.

6. three-part service, fuel induction service, throttle plate cleaning
these are all different names for essentially the same service. (the "three part" also includes a top engine cleaner aka fuel induction service and fuel additive.) this is really only needed if the throttle plate starts to stick. a good idea after 100k, but just the throttle plate cleaning. there is no accessible port to feed the top engine cleaner through, and fuel system additives are not recommended with the bladder fuel tank. possible complications from doing various parts of the service: fuel tank additive can possibly damage the fuel system- unlikely but still possible. biggest issue with this is deposits on the spark plugs, causing reduced power and fuel economy. for the throttle plate cleaning, using too much of the cleaner can cause the car to run funny for a few minutes but that's about it.

7. PCV valve replacement
a good idea at a 60k interval just to be on the safe side. if this fails, it will either stick closed (rare) and blow oil seals, or stick open and allow oil to enter the intake. most people forget this valve because it's hidden. but it's a simple replacement and damn hard to screw up.

8. alignment
depends on your driving style. aggressive drivers should have it checked every 10k. otherwise every 15-20k just to make sure it's right. a MUST when replacing tires and if you notice uneven tire wear.

*if you have a question about something that's not listed here, please do ask.

Is the rear brake clean, doable at home? How about a coolant backflush? Is it possible after the 100k to do it at home with a backflush kit? I haven't studied the hoses.
Is the trottle plate normally sticky after a certain amount of hard use? I have cleaned an F-150 throttle plate, but the Prius is a different critter.

[hiremichaelreid]

Originally Posted by brighamwj

With all the bookkeeping you may as well pay 3x the price at the dealer to save the hassle and I like changing my oil.

Excellent suggestions for documentation, but have there been instances when this is necessary?

IMO, All you really have to do is maintain a log if you do your own oil changes. Preferrably, right in the booklet Toyota gives you for that. Record odometer, date, etc and sign. That should be just as good in the law's eyes as an invoice from a mechanic.

So the receipts fade after years. Too bad. IMO if it comes to a court case, Toyota has to prove you didn't maintain. If your receipts are faded or lost, but you have the logbook it should be good. Heck, pay with your credit card at Cdn tire or wherever (For Mobil 1, use Toyota filters) and keep the credit card invoices for a few years.

I logged into "Club Toyota" for first time today. Would be nice if you could record service there.

Anyway, I haven't done my own oil changes in 20+ years, but I'm going to do everything I can (non-warranty) on my own. I'm not going to trust random minimum wage employees at the dealership or elsewhere. Not when I have a house with garage and a place to dig a service pit now !

I dropped a few ounces of my oil at 1400 KM (870 miles) today and sent it for analysis. $20 or so at Toromont Cat. Perhaps I'll do it at 2800 KM, and every oil change. If I post every analysis here, heck that's publicly available time-stamped documentation enough that I did my service.

Oh yeah I removed the wheel trim rings from my "Canadian Touring base" today. Looks cool, as the thread title says "what services you need" and I think the trim removal "mod" is essential. Wonder if it cancels out any wheel warranty...

[brighamwj]

Originally Posted by hiremichaelreid

So the receipts fade after years. Too bad. IMO if it comes to a court case, Toyota has to prove you didn't maintain. If your receipts are faded or lost, keep the credit card invoices for a few years.

I think the trim removal "mod" is essential. Wonder if it cancels out any wheel warranty...

Thanks. I wish I had a service pit. I didn't need one with my 9 mpg 92 f-150. Not quite the tolerances we have under the Prius.

I have been writing all my filter/oil changes in the manual. I can't find the official toyota svc. record. I wonder if that will void my warranty? I am like you. I am not trusting a service technician not to screw up on a small fluid service and I know what the oil looks like going in and coming out.

I guess the rear brake clean is just a spray and wipe down with brake cleaner after the drum is removed or is there more required?

The Gen III version will have rear discs. I wonder if they will be replaced more often.

What is the max life people are getting out of there front and rear brakes currently?