What services you need and what you don't

[jayman]

For those interested in a breakdown of an '02 Prius TB (The '04-'09 is similar) our resident mad scientist Hobbit has a great discussion on his site

http://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/tb/

Hope this helps. As this is a fairly serious discussion of "what services you need" let's leave the name calling and personal insults to PM's

[ETP]

Coming up on my first oil change. I live in Sunny Florida and the Summers are wet and hot but not like Vegas hot. Is 0W30 ok or should I stick to 5W30? I will be taking my oil to the dealer so are there any problems with the dealer saying go away//wrong weight oil????

[jayman]

Originally Posted by ETP

Is 0W30 ok or should I stick to 5W30?

This can be a confusing topic, so I'll try to keep it simple

A 0W oil of any flavor (0W-20, 0W-30, 0W-40) has to meet the SAE J300 specifications for a 0W oil. That means at -40 C, the maximum cold pumping viscosity is 60,000 cP or centipoise.

The viscosity measurement for cold pumping - centipoise - is a dynamic measurement. The testing protocol is ASTM D4684

A 5W oil of any flavor (5W-20, 5W-30, etc) has to meet the SAE J300 specifications for a 5W oil. That means at -35 C, the maximum cold pumping viscosity is 60,000 cP

At the other end of the scale, any oil claiming to be a "30" (0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30, 30) must have an operating viscosity range of 9.3-12.5 cSt (Centistokes) at +100 C. The operating viscosity is a kinematic measurement and is covered under ASTM D445

So, what does all that mean?

In real world testing, many 0W-30 oils are far superior to conventional 5W-30 oils, especially for low temperature pumping. Many conventional 5W-30 oils test "borderline" at only -25 C. Some 0W-30 oils, such as Castrol Syntec 0W-30 (Made in Germany), actually have *better* operating temperature protection than conventional 5W-30

A 0W-30 is entirely appropriate for any motor that calls for a 10W-30 or 5W-30. But your dealership will probably react in horror, telling you that you'll blow up the motor, etc. It wouldn't hurt to ask them first, before you show up with oil that will cause a negative reaction. There have been incidents of some dealerships acting so snotty, they'll put on the work order "wrong oil supplied, warranty void"

I'd use the 0W-30 without hesitation. But one other factor to take into account, I doubt you will even see +20 F for a low temp where you live, let alone -40. I like Mobil 1 0W-30 and Castrol Syntec 0W-30, but for your climate, the benefits are so minor (Better cold start protection and teeny fuel economy improvement) they may not be worth the hassle

[ETP]

Originally Posted by jayman

This can be a confusing topic, so I'll try to keep it simple

A 0W oil of any flavor (0W-20, 0W-30, 0W-40) has to meet the SAE J300 specifications for a 0W oil. That means at -40 C, the maximum cold pumping viscosity is 60,000 cP or centipoise.

The viscosity measurement for cold pumping - centipoise - is a dynamic measurement. The testing protocol is ASTM D4684

A 5W oil of any flavor (5W-20, 5W-30, etc) has to meet the SAE J300 specifications for a 5W oil. That means at -35 C, the maximum cold pumping viscosity is 60,000 cP

At the other end of the scale, any oil claiming to be a "30" (0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30, 30) must have an operating viscosity range of 9.3-12.5 cSt (Centistokes) at +100 C. The operating viscosity is a kinematic measurement and is covered under ASTM D445

So, what does all that mean?

In real world testing, many 0W-30 oils are far superior to conventional 5W-30 oils, especially for low temperature pumping. Many conventional 5W-30 oils test "borderline" at only -25 C. Some 0W-30 oils, such as Castrol Syntec 0W-30 (Made in Germany), actually have *better* operating temperature protection than conventional 5W-30

A 0W-30 is entirely appropriate for any motor that calls for a 10W-30 or 5W-30. But your dealership will probably react in horror, telling you that you'll blow up the motor, etc. It wouldn't hurt to ask them first, before you show up with oil that will cause a negative reaction. There have been incidents of some dealerships acting so snotty, they'll put on the work order "wrong oil supplied, warranty void"

I'd use the 0W-30 without hesitation. But one other factor to take into account, I doubt you will even see +20 F for a low temp where you live, let alone -40. I like Mobil 1 0W-30 and Castrol Syntec 0W-30, but for your climate, the benefits are so minor (Better cold start protection and teeny fuel economy improvement) they may not be worth the hassle

ok, I will show with a jug of each and see what they will do. Seems like 5W30 full synthetic for mild to hot climates will be fine anyway.

[jayman]

Originally Posted by ETP

Seems like 5W30 full synthetic for mild to hot climates will be fine anyway.

I agree

If you want to have a bit of evil fun, when you pop in for your service appointment, ask the guy what the "5W" in 5W-30 means. You'll likely get very amusing and laughible responses, such as "oh, that's the viscosity at 0 F"

[rusty houndog]

Originally Posted by jayman

I did display a photo of my Prius TB. Here we go again:

< picture deletions >

Take the airbox lid off your Prius, easy enough to do so. With a strong flashlight, shine it down the bore. You will notice deposits on the MAF, specifically on the IAT bulb (The hot wires are buried inside the MAF bore, you have to remove the MAF to inspect it)

I knew it was time to clean my Prius TB when I noticed deposits on the upper side of the blade. You will notice in the photo, discoloration around the edge of the TB blade. When you notice that, the TB blade has fairly heavy deposits underneath
< deletions >

As I originally asserted, the throttle body blade is being continually bathed in fuel/air vapors due to the compression cycle pulse caused by up to 105 degrees open intake valve in the 180 degree compression stroke.

That means the plenum of the intake manifold is constantly being supplied with fresh fuel/air vapors that are forced OUT of the fuel charged cylinders during the compression stroke. Constantly, during every VVT four cycle period, fuel vapors bathe the throttle blade under pulsing currents. There are four cylinders supplying fuel/air vapors under varying pressures and velocities back into the plenum.

Please, explain to me how the "underside" of the throttle blade can be effected by "exhaust" deposits, or any other kind of deposits. What you see in the pictures you show are normal discolorations due to atmospheric micro molecular "corrosion" activities effecting the metal of the throttle blade. The "black" discolorations on my throttle blade are all in a small circle around the "left" side the throttle bar, above and below the bar. Clearly, not air flow "deposits."

The schmutz on the MAF sensor you show is caused by atmospheric contaminants; no crankcase or exhaust gunk required. In fact, no crank case or exhaust gunk possible. The even, dull patterns on the bulb and the stem is also how "deposits" on the blade should appear. The "deposits" in the pictures of the blade you showed definitely do NOT show any kind of even patterning, or dullness. There is no source of "deposits" at that point other than the common air stream past the MAF sensor and the throttle blade.

The throttle blade is being constantly cleaned by pulsing fuel/air vapors. PERIOD!

[jayman]

Originally Posted by rusty houndog

The throttle blade is being constantly cleaned by pulsing fuel/air vapors. PERIOD!

Sure pal, whatever you say

[worrywort]

Many thanks--just a couple of questions--I went for an oil change (hard to get under car --and had a coupon) and a state inspection today at the dealer. Car had 31000miles and I had replaced tires/aligned with replacement three weeks ago with a local tire store.
They of course tried to sell me lots of things--including gapping the spark plugs and putting anti-seize compound on them--as well as injector flushing. I said no. I had declined the air filter and cabin filter, telling them that I had purchased these and planned to do them on my own.

They come and show me my dirty filters (not really all that dirty--just not pearly white) and indicated I should do these for $100 with labor. Many exchanges--especially about what about "no" did they not understand--and what about an oil change gave them the right to go into my glove box. At any rate, this was the last straw..

From your guidelines, the only thing I think I need to worry about is having someone look at the brakes--
Is it safe to have someone other than a Toyota trained tech do this??

Are all dealers this pushy with female customers? How do I find a "safe" nondealer service professional for a Prius?

Next question--is it wise to take the extended warranty--I'm still within 3 yrs.

Again--many thanks.

PS--the dealer wanted to charge 100 plus to look at the CV boot--wouldn't they see this anyway when I had the tires done and when they pulled the wheel for the state inspection on the brakes?

Thanks.

Originally Posted by galaxee

another public service announcement from your friendly tech and translator

just a list of commonly recommended services, whether they're needed and if so, when, and other useful info.

1. brake flush
may be a good idea after 100k miles/10 years. completely cleaning out the whole system is near impossible with standard brake flush equipment (mainly because the prius has almost 1 gal of brake fluid in it!) possible complications include air in brake system, damage to actuator or solenoid valves. (PS to those of you worried about rusting... the calipers are aluminum body construction with a composite plastic piston.)

2. clean/adjust rear brakes
only if you have drums (obviously in the prius, we do). ideally, for optimal brake life and performance, this is probably a good idea every 30k miles. for other cars, 15k a better idea. when you hear a tone out of the rear brakes, it's either time to change the brakes or have them cleaned/adjusted. if it's not done, you can see an increased brake wear rate (front and rear). possible complications are problems due to technician error- adjustment extremely tight can overheat a bearing. otherwise noise, brake chatter, or increased wear rate and glazing if not properly adjusted.

3. transaxle fluid
there is no way to "flush" the trans on a prius. if someone tries to sell you this, run. they can drain and fill, however. the fluid is expensive and is supposed to go 100k, but you can never go wrong changing it early. in most cases it isn't necessary. this is the same fluid that goes into a tundra for 100k under towing conditions. the only complication you might see is again due to tech error- using the wrong fluid or not filling all the way.

4. engine and inverter fluid
drain/fill is OK, but NO flushes. it's not even possible on the inverter and the engine is difficult but not impossible, however NOT recommended as it can cause serious damage to the electric water pump and switching valves. you do not need the drain/fill until your car hits 100k. if the coolant is still nice and pink, don't do it then either. again, the coolant is said to go 100k. while you're not going to do any wrong by changing it early, again it is expensive like the trans fluid. possible complications include more tech error- bleeding these systems is a PITA and getting all the air out is hard. an incomplete fill, use of the wrong coolant, can damage your car.

5. EFI or fuel injector cleaning
really not necessary until you see 100k, if you have a bad tank of gas, or if you start seeing misfires (and you'll see a check engine light when that happens.) possible problems include damage to fuel lines or connectors while disconnecting/reconnecting the adapter equipment to the system. the fuel line that you would access to hook up the adapter is directly above the exhaust manifold... NOT a place you want a leak. other possible problems could include seal failures due to pressure (rare but possible.) since it doesn't idle, most techs will get in and stomp on the gas pedal until the EFI cleaner runs its course. this leads to a condition called "blinky check engine light" which means that you have overheated your catalyst and are in serious danger of melting the insides of your catalytic converter.

6. three-part service, fuel induction service, throttle plate cleaning
these are all different names for essentially the same service. (the "three part" also includes a top engine cleaner aka fuel induction service and fuel additive.) this is really only needed if the throttle plate starts to stick. a good idea after 100k, but just the throttle plate cleaning. there is no accessible port to feed the top engine cleaner through, and fuel system additives are not recommended with the bladder fuel tank. possible complications from doing various parts of the service: fuel tank additive can possibly damage the fuel system- unlikely but still possible. biggest issue with this is deposits on the spark plugs, causing reduced power and fuel economy. for the throttle plate cleaning, using too much of the cleaner can cause the car to run funny for a few minutes but that's about it.

7. PCV valve replacement
a good idea at a 60k interval just to be on the safe side. if this fails, it will either stick closed (rare) and blow oil seals, or stick open and allow oil to enter the intake. most people forget this valve because it's hidden. but it's a simple replacement and damn hard to screw up.

8. alignment
depends on your driving style. aggressive drivers should have it checked every 10k. otherwise every 15-20k just to make sure it's right. a MUST when replacing tires and if you notice uneven tire wear.

*if you have a question about something that's not listed here, please do ask.

[jaw444]

Originally Posted by worrywort

Is it safe to have someone other than a Toyota trained tech do this??

Are all dealers this pushy with female customers?

I'm female and i didn't have this experience when i took my car in for its 30,000 mi service at Keyes Toyota in Van Nuys CA. If i hadn't been informed by this forum, maybe the service manager would've applied more pressure but he didn't seem that way. When he was writing up the service document after we discussed what i wanted to have done and some questions i (as a new Prius owner) had, he said that they recommend this $300 collection of varioius services, far beyond what it says in the Toyota service book, and i already knew i didn't even need all the things listed in the Toyota book because i'd already had some of them done. Like you I had just replaced the tires with alignment, maybe three weeks before. And i had complete whole car inspection before buying it a month or so previously. When i said i only wanted the basic things i needed, he said that i was right, i was making the right choice, and there were no more suggestions or recommendations of additional services.

I think i got taken by my Honda agency. But not the Honda agency i went to before that one when i lived somewhere else.

I do think some mechanic businesses to try to overcharge people, of both genders, and i'm sure there's something to the idea that women in particular are targets of manipulation. I imagine anyone who comes across as not mechanically savvy, male or female, will be targeted. My opinion is that if you have other Toyota dealers to choose from, try another one and on the first visit, start out saying "I was taking my car to XYZ Toyota but they were trying to sell me a lot of services i didn't need so that's why i switched to you." You probably wouldn't have a problem, as long as you consult with Prius Chat forums before taking your car in for anything.

[ibmindless]

I think it's appalling how so many dealers and franchise outfits pounce upon their customers as if the customers are weak prey to be harvested. I particularly notice how they go after women with a vengeance. I can't let my wife take a car in for an oil change without having these snake oil pushers trying to foist hundreds of dollars of unnecessary "services" upon her. And then I would be skeptical that most of these "services" would actually be performed. In these tough economical times, I would be especially wary.

Read the maintenance schedule in your manual and follow it. What the dealer really means when they say, "We recommend you have the following $ervice$ performed" is: "In order to help supplement our diminishing income due to fewer car sales, we recommend you have the following services performed." Restaurants use similar techniques: "Would you like to supersize that?"

Just like young people are advised, JUST SAY NO.