What services you need and what you don't

[FL_Prius_Driver]

It is threads like this that make coming to PC fun, learn things that both save $$$ and extend car life. Thanks to all. Comments:

1) At the first sign of any vibration in the car, getting the tires balanced solves the problem. At the first sign of any uneven tire wear, an alignment is in order. This assumes you keep tire pressures monitored. I am not encouraging waiting till this occurs to do something, but I have saved a lot of money by following this path when it does occur.

2) I very much like to perform all the maintenance myself and want to keep the car healthy, but I absolutely detest returning used fluids to "the system" if I can find a way not to. As a result, I use synthetic oil after initial engine breakin, then I start doubling the change interval. (Note that the Classic Prius had 7500 mile oil change intervals and the HSD Prius has 5000 mile oil change intervals, yet use the same engine.)

3) What I am really looking for is a way of determining the fluid changes based on fluid analysis. I would happily handover $40 bucks for a fluid analysis of all fluids in the car that would tell me the actual condition so I would never have to dump good stuff into "the system". (This is a business opportunity someone!)

[tochatihu]

FL_Prius, used engine oil analyses are becoming more common in Prius, and have been posted here at PC. Lots of labs do them, but I have used Blackstone. For the oil, what you want to see is viscosity still in range and TBN not used up. It should not accumulate too much engine wear metals, insolubles, water, fuel antifreeze etc. If still good then longer oil change intervals might be considered. Synthetic oils for the long haul; I don't know of any Prius going beyond 8k miles on conventional oil.

Similarly transmission fluid can be analysed by certain labs. It is based on these that some of us like the type T IV fluid to be changed at 30k and the type WS at 60k.

Brake fluid is analyzed for % water absorption directly or indirectly by its copper content. Good brake shops can do this quickly and tell you whether to change.

I imagine there are tests for copper or aluminum accumulation in antifreeze/coolant, which by their presence would announce that the corrosion inhibitors are depleted. I changed mine own from LLC to SLLC recently. Even though the rated life of LLC is 30k I went about 45k miles. The red stuff came out of the inverter looking like new, and from the engine loop with only a few rubber bits (erosion of tubing). Mind you I did not test it chemically, but it looked very new.

So for all of these fluids the change interval could be based on chemistry. Some would turn out longer than Toyota suggests, and perhaps others shorter. Problem is to suggest longer intervals to folks who are not getting the analyses done. That could lead them towards problems.

[apriusfan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FL_Prius_Driver @ Jun 30 2007, 10:40 AM) [snapback]470647[/snapback]</div>

...1) At the first sign of any vibration in the car, getting the tires balanced solves the problem. At the first sign of any uneven tire wear, an alignment is in order. This assumes you keep tire pressures monitored. I am not encouraging waiting till this occurs to do something, but I have saved a lot of money by following this path when it does occur.[/b]

Don't you get the tires (and wheels) road force balanced when originally purchased? Regarding alignment, I have a suspension shop that I pay for an initial alignment and then every 5,000 miles I get free checks. If any of the settings are off when checked, I only pay for bringing the errant setting back into specification. There have been times where everything is fine for 10,000 miles and then toe or camber is off. With this model, I have been able to average 40,000 miles per set of tires.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FL_Prius_Driver @ Jun 30 2007, 10:40 AM) [snapback]470647[/snapback]</div>

...2) I very much like to perform all the maintenance myself and want to keep the car healthy, but I absolutely detest returning used fluids to "the system" if I can find a way not to. As a result, I use synthetic oil after initial engine breakin, then I start doubling the change interval. (Note that the Classic Prius had 7500 mile oil change intervals and the HSD Prius has 5000 mile oil change intervals, yet use the same engine.)[/b]

Going to a 10,000 mile engine oil drain interval with full synthetic (especially if you use oil analysis to confirm that the oil is not breaking down) is probably a valid one. However, during the factory warranty period, you are putting yourself at risk for a denial of warranty action. If something breaks on the engine that is lubrication based, you are going to have an uphill fight to get Toyota to cover it. And frankly, the cost of litigation is going to be far greater than the cost of doing an oil & filter change every 5,000 miles. It basically comes down to the concept of an ounce of prevention versus a pound of cure.

[FL_Prius_Driver]

Thanks greatly for the replies. Let me clarify the key issue. I have already been through oil warranty battles with the 99 Camry (oil sludging). It turns out that the key linchpin of a real legal fight is not getting oil changed at 5k or 10k or whatever, it is showing that you have been maintaining your car responsibly and that you have the documentation to back that up. Won that battle with good documentation. I also make the dramatic distinctions between Toyota Dealers (good and bad), Toyota USA (better), and Toyota Japan (very good). Yes, a dealer can fight you sucessfully, but the dealer cannot fight Toyota USA/Japan with any hope of success. In reality, there will not be a lubrication problem with a well maintained Prius Engine running synthetic oil at 10k intervals. That was not true of the 99 Camry engine running non-synthetic oil.

That said, I am aware that I can pay for fluid analysis (however, providing the specific locations is very welcome). What I am after is 1) convenience and 2) a set of acceptable thresholds for replacing or not replacing the oil. The convenience is to allow the concept to become mainstream, just like most of us here are helping the hybrid become mainstream. I am one of the few (or hopefully not) that would consider $40 for validating that my oil does not need to be changed to be better spent than having it changed for that price. The real key is I could have the samples taken, drive off, get the results off the web. Save lots of time all around. Obviously for this to work, I need know what thresholds matter (which I can do with more education) but it sure will not become mainstream till the other 90% of users have a Go/No Go threshold.

Now, tochatihu has provided the first steps towards implementing a good program. If I use synthetic oil, and have a lab analysis document, a balky dealer will be hard pressed to claim missing a 5k caused the engine block to crack. The core point is that a lot of waste is being generated dumping perfectly good fluids into the "disposal/recycle system" ....and that some much larger waste is being generated by early mechanical failures not being detected by future, easy, fluid analysis. There is a larger goal here, less waste, better maintenance.

(P.S. Yes, I do balance and align at tire replacement. Free alignment checks may be good, but they do take time and I have found that Toyotas are great for keeping alignment. In this case my system has served me well. It has been the "hardness" of the tires that determines their wear life.)

[apriusfan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(apriusfan @ Jun 29 2007, 07:15 PM) [snapback]470418[/snapback]</div>

I have been considering replacing (drain and refill) the CVT transmission fluid at somewhere around 5,000 or 10,000 miles to get rid of metal particles that have been thrown off during the initial break-in period. Any thoughts/comments?[/b]

Bump. Anyone? I kind of thought that this question would generate all manner of comment as it is somewhat analogous to whether one should do a drain of the engine oil and filter around the 1,000 mile mark.

[FL_Prius_Driver]

RE: CVT Fluid Replacement

There is a lot of discussion scattered through various threads. The full answer is out there somewhere. Quick Summary of what I have found:
1) Toyota's standard servicing schedule does not call out for any replacement at all.
2) Some number of transaxial failures have occured, possibly due to fluid issues, possibly not.
3) An emerging consensus is that a change at 60k should be considered.

Few would try and convince any owner that they should not care for their car as best they can. My desire would be to do the analysis (if possible) so that a whole crankcase of perfectly good fluid is not wasted at such a short interval (or if there are metal flakes, where are they coming from). If I remember correctly, there is a magnet on the drain plug to collect steel particles. I do not know how one checks this magnet except by draining the fluid to begin with.

[apriusfan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FL_Prius_Driver @ Jul 1 2007, 01:01 PM) [snapback]471124[/snapback]</div>

RE: CVT Fluid Replacement

There is a lot of discussion scattered through various threads. The full answer is out there somewhere. Quick Summary of what I have found:
1) Toyota's standard servicing schedule does not call out for any replacement at all.
2) Some number of transaxial failures have occured, possibly due to fluid issues, possibly not.
3) An emerging consensus is that a change at 60k should be considered.

Few would try and convince any owner that they should not care for their car as best they can. My desire would be to do the analysis (if possible) so that a whole crankcase of perfectly good fluid is not wasted at such a short interval (or if there are metal flakes, where are they coming from). If I remember correctly, there is a magnet on the drain plug to collect steel particles. I do not know how one checks this magnet except by draining the fluid to begin with.[/b]

Regarding 1. above, "Lifetime fill" is a marketing term, best interpreted to mean for the lifetime of the warranty period....

It is to avoid a CVT failure that I am considering an early initial replacement of the fluid. Other manufacturers that offer CVTs are experiencing failures around 60,000 miles. The proportion of failed CVTs to total CVTs is a secret that is protected better than the U.S. Dept. of Energy is able to protect designs for nuclear warheads, so no help to assess the true magnitude of the exposure.

I am less concerned with pre-maturely dumping the CVT fluid. The cost of the fluid pales in comparison to the cost of the CVT itself. I am more concerned with getting the little bits of metal out of the fluid (and by extension, the CVT itself). The metal particles would be sourced from the CVT belts and pulleys experiencing the break-in process. If there is a magnetic drain plug, I might be disposed to replacing the fluid at somewhere around the 10,000 mile point, followed by a second fluid replacement at the 60,000 mile point.

[galaxee]

the prius 'transmission' is far different than the CVT you're thinking of. there are no belts or pulleys or anything, it's a fixed set of gears. there is no friction so there should be no metal wear.

check out john's site at john1701a.com- under the "prius info" header click on the power-split-device link. you'll see what i mean.

again, so long as the fluid change is done properly you're not going to hurt anything. but there isn't a need to do so that early.

[apriusfan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Jul 1 2007, 02:43 PM) [snapback]471151[/snapback]</div>

the prius 'transmission' is far different than the CVT you're thinking of. there are no belts or pulleys or anything, it's a fixed set of gears. there is no friction so there should be no metal wear.[/b]

I may have missed something (and my appologies in advance if I have), but in this photo, there appears to be a metal link belt running from north to south in roughly the center of the photo. Further, on a plane that appears to be aligned with the center of the crankshaft of the engine, there is what appears to be a variable gap pulley that is attached to the belt - all of which point to a traditional CVT application.

[IsrAmeriPrius]

From HowStuffWorks:

The power split device is the heart of the Toyota Prius. This is a clever gearbox that hooks the gasoline engine, generator and electric motor together. It allows the car to operate like a parallel hybrid -- the electric motor can power the car by itself, the gas engine can power the car by itself or they can power the car together. The power split device also allows the car to operate like a series hybrid -- the gasoline engine can operate independently of the vehicle speed, charging the batteries or providing power to the wheels as needed. It also acts as a continuously variable transmission (CVT), eliminating the need for a manual or automatic transmission. Finally, because the power split device allows the generator to start the engine, the car does not need a starter. The power split device is a planetary gear set (below). The electric motor is connected to the ring gear of the gear set. It is also directly connected to the differential, which drives the wheels. So, whatever speed the electric motor and ring gear spin at determines the speed of the car.

The generator is connected to the sun gear of the gear set, and the engine is connected to the planet carrier. The speed of the ring gear depends on all three components, so they all have to work together at all times to control the output speed. When you accelerate, initially the electric motor and batteries provide all of the power. The ring gear of the power split device is connected to the electric motor, so it starts to spin with the motor. The planet carrier, which is connected to the engine, is stationary because the engine is not running. Since the ring gear is spinning, the planets have to spin, which causes the sun gear and generator to spin. As the car accelerates, the generator spins at whatever speed it needs to in order for the engine to remain off.

Once you reach about 40 mph (64 kph), the gasoline engine will turn on. The generator suddenly changes speed, causing the planet carrier to turn and start the engine. Once the engine is running, it settles into a constant speed while the generator varies its speed to match the output speed with the electric motor. If you are really accelerating hard, the motor will draw extra power from the batteries. Once you are up to freeway speed, the car will move under a combination of gas and electric power, with all of the electricity coming from the generator. [/b]