2002: Verdict: transaxle and inverter dead

[canadiandriver]

My wife and I have a 2002 Prius with 250,000 km on it. Yesterday morning I noticed a hum from the front end and a grumble when pulling away from a stop (I thought worn bearing or tire tread issue -- but that wasn't it... read on!)

When returning home from work the red triangle of doom came on. I stopped and restarted (the triangle has come on in the past when it's excessvely humid), but the triangle was still there. I decided to bring the vehicle to the dealer and started driving.

11 km later the transmission started surging and the READY light turned off and the gas pedal had no effect. The MFD indicated no powerflow... anywhere... I coasted to a stop, restarted, and had power again. But still the red triangle and still miles from the dealership. So I kept driving.

The car would not exceed 90km per hour, and would not accellerate (or even attempt to accellerate) if I floored it. When I braked, there was no flow from the "wheel" icon to the "electric motor" icon, but the flow from the ICE to both the wheels and the battery seemed fine. The transmission still was surging, though. And, besides the triangle of doom, I now had the yellow "check engine" light, and the parking brake light on...

30 km later, as I approached the last hill to the dealership (a slight grade that never gives problems), the vehicle lost power and coasted to a stop. Then started rolling backwards. I curbed it and tried to get momentum, but couldn't move. The ICE was running, but no power. After waiting for a tow truck for 30 minutes (on a blind uphill corner with lots of traffic and no shoulder... crappy...), the MFD started flickering and the radio pulsed in and out. I cut the ICE and just had the hazard lights on. 30 minutes later they were dead, too.

Eventually I got towed to a dealership and am awaiting news -- they took it in today and have yet to call me with post-diagnostic results. BUT... does anyone here have any ideas?

Don (Calgary, Alberta)

[rigormortis]

if you have not even heard the casue of the actual problem from the delaership, why are you scaring people with the 'electric motor died'
headline

there are probably other casues to the symptons you describe

[canadiandriver]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rigormortis @ Oct 10 2007, 11:31 PM) [snapback]523997[/snapback]</div>

if you have not even heard the casue of the actual problem from the delaership, why are you scaring people with the 'electric motor died'
headline

there are probably other casues to the symptons you describe
[/b]

Fair enough... better now?

I don't mean to scare. We love the Prius, but I thoguht other owners' experience could help me help the dealer source the problem.

[galaxee]

well, not much we can do till you find out the diagnostic codes. report back when they call back.

[drifty1955]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(canadiandriver @ Oct 10 2007, 11:10 PM) [snapback]523991[/snapback]</div>

My wife and I have a 2002 Prius with 250,000 km on it. Yesterday morning I noticed a hum from the front end and a grumble when pulling away from a stop (I thought worn bearing or tire tread issue -- but that wasn't it... read on!)

When returning home from work the red triangle of doom came on. I stopped and restarted (the triangle has come on in the past when it's excessvely humid), but the triangle was still there. I decided to bring the vehicle to the dealer and started driving.

11 km later the transmission started surging and the READY light turned off and the gas pedal had no effect. The MFD indicated no powerflow... anywhere... I coasted to a stop, restarted, and had power again. But still the red triangle and still miles from the dealership. So I kept driving.

The car would not exceed 90km per hour, and would not accellerate (or even attempt to accellerate) if I floored it. When I braked, there was no flow from the "wheel" icon to the "electric motor" icon, but the flow from the ICE to both the wheels and the battery seemed fine. The transmission still was surging, though. And, besides the triangle of doom, I now had the yellow "check engine" light, and the parking brake light on...

30 km later, as I approached the last hill to the dealership (a slight grade that never gives problems), the vehicle lost power and coasted to a stop. Then started rolling backwards. I curbed it and tried to get momentum, but couldn't move. The ICE was running, but no power. After waiting for a tow truck for 30 minutes (on a blind uphill corner with lots of traffic and no shoulder... crappy...), the MFD started flickering and the radio pulsed in and out. I cut the ICE and just had the hazard lights on. 30 minutes later they were dead, too.

Eventually I got towed to a dealership and am awaiting news -- they took it in today and have yet to call me with post-diagnostic results. BUT... does anyone here have any ideas?

Don (Calgary, Alberta)
[/b]

Hi,
First of all thats some excellent mileage you have there. Has the car been exceptionally maintained? Nothing about your post scared me though except the previous posts spelling.I was marveling at all the miles you've enjoyed. I wonder though after all the original commotion how come you didn't get out of the car and do even a cursory examination under the bonnet? Did you have excellent oil level?....Smell anything burning under the hood?...how did the motor sound sitting there idling? was it happy? I was shocked that after the original triangle of death you complain that it wouldn't do more than 70 miles an hour. I'm a very new owner and know very little about this car except when you see the triangle of death pull over and check it out.But it does sound battery/elec motor related. How's the charge level been? More details please.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(canadiandriver @ Oct 10 2007, 11:10 PM) [snapback]523991[/snapback]</div>

My wife and I have a 2002 Prius with 250,000 km on it. Yesterday morning I noticed a hum from the front end and a grumble when pulling away from a stop (I thought worn bearing or tire tread issue -- but that wasn't it... read on!)

When returning home from work the red triangle of doom came on. I stopped and restarted (the triangle has come on in the past when it's excessvely humid), but the triangle was still there. I decided to bring the vehicle to the dealer and started driving.

11 km later the transmission started surging and the READY light turned off and the gas pedal had no effect. The MFD indicated no powerflow... anywhere... I coasted to a stop, restarted, and had power again. But still the red triangle and still miles from the dealership. So I kept driving.

The car would not exceed 90km per hour, and would not accellerate (or even attempt to accellerate) if I floored it. When I braked, there was no flow from the "wheel" icon to the "electric motor" icon, but the flow from the ICE to both the wheels and the battery seemed fine. The transmission still was surging, though. And, besides the triangle of doom, I now had the yellow "check engine" light, and the parking brake light on...

30 km later, as I approached the last hill to the dealership (a slight grade that never gives problems), the vehicle lost power and coasted to a stop. Then started rolling backwards. I curbed it and tried to get momentum, but couldn't move. The ICE was running, but no power. After waiting for a tow truck for 30 minutes (on a blind uphill corner with lots of traffic and no shoulder... crappy...), the MFD started flickering and the radio pulsed in and out. I cut the ICE and just had the hazard lights on. 30 minutes later they were dead, too.

Eventually I got towed to a dealership and am awaiting news -- they took it in today and have yet to call me with post-diagnostic results. BUT... does anyone here have any ideas?

Don (Calgary, Alberta)
[/b]

Hi,
First of all thats some excellent mileage you have there. Has the car been exceptionally maintained? Nothing about your post scared me though except the previous posts spelling.I was marveling at all the miles you've enjoyed. I wonder though after all the original commotion how come you didn't get out of the car and do even a cursory examination under the bonnet? Did you have excellent oil level?....Smell anything burning under the hood?...how did the motor sound sitting there idling? was it happy? I was shocked that after the original triangle of death you complain that it wouldn't do more than 70 miles an hour. I'm a very new owner and know very little about this car except when you see the triangle of death pull over and check it out.But it does sound battery/elec motor related. How's the charge level been? More details please.

[canadiandriver]

Thanks -- we have enjoyed every kilometer we've driven. We purchased the car three years ago, wholesale, for $9,000 with 140,000 km on it (right place at the right tiime!). The previous owner was a rental agency, but we had it inspected thoroughly by the local Toyota dealership and the only issue was the mileage and some minor body damage.

As for the issue at hand:
I did check under the hood when the red triangle came on and there was nothing out of place. No smells, oil fine -- not even dark, and it didn't even seem hot. The battery was half charged or better throughout the ordeal (and has always been great).

Prior to the 'triangle of doom' I did listen to the car at idle and there was no strange sound or rumble. The vibration I noticed was simply at low speeds when pulling away from a stop -- thought to be tires or bearings, but in hindsight something more serious.

AND...I have recieved an initial report from Toyota:

1. They had three error codes, two of which they couldn't decipher (they were unknown to the hybrid tech) so they're contacting Toyota Canada tomorrow. The one they could figure out was a "simultaneous misfire of all cylinders." I'll update when I hear about the next one.

2. They have ruled out the battery and suspect either the transmission or the inverter (or both). They are concerned that this will be a major fix -- parting out on eBay, anyone?

3. Tomorrow they will continue the diagnostic by physically pulling parts.

And the adventure continues...

[canadiandriver]

The verdict is in from the dealership:

1. the 4 fault codes were for:
- engine misfire
- did not start
- inverter failure
- battery control system

2. the recommended fix is for a new transaxle and inverter assembly. The quote is for $11,117 plus tax. Aye carumba. The parts are $8700.

I've found one wrecked 2001 Prius in the province, low km, but they're not sure if the transaxle is ok (that car was in a front-end collision). I'm guessing they'll charge around $2500 for the part, plus labour to install is still $2400.

So any advice would be great.

Is there an option I'm missing? Is there a venue for parting out a Prius, and how much would I get for it?

Thankfully I don't need a vehicle all next week!

Don

[FL_Prius_Driver]

There are a few facts that may apply or not:
1) The Prius will shift to a fail safe mode that will allow driving in some cases if the fault is not a safety issue (e.g. Inverter above temperature setpoint)
2) If the problem involves damage or safety then the ready light goes away and the car will not go (e.g. Inverter Overtemperature Shutdown)

It sounds like the problem is something along the lines of inverter overtemp, but this is just speculation based on a condensed description of the problem. There can be quite a few different failure mechanisms that could give similar results.

edit after seeing latest post:

I would find out the cost of just an inverter replacement. The DTCs did not state a transaxle failure, but I bet that the manual indicated that the transaxle 'could' have failed....so the dealer should be real clear as to why you have to spend all these $$$ for a new transaxle. Also post the DTCs. Many here can tell you exactly what the manual states for each DTC. [e.g. Why not replace the engine since a misfire was reported?]

[donee]

Hi FL.. and Can....

The engine misfire could be related to the inverter failure. If the inverter could not turn the engine over due to a MG1 short, or MG2 short with MG1/MG2 missyncronisation, the engine would not start when expected, which the computer probably would record as a mis-fire.

It seems to me you probably did in the inverter in that last bit of driving there. Inverters do not like shorts, or opens. I had one industrial control go off like a shot-gun once due to being mis-wired. The Prius is a little less dramatic apparently, due to the on-chip temp sensors. But still, best thing is get into a safe location and shut it down.

[tochatihu]

Canadian, you might consider atacking this in stages:

1) The first post suggests that you exhausted the 12 volt battery on the roadside. Prius has some history of reporting irrelevant codes when the 12 volt system is low. May or may not matter in this case.

2) Classic Prius inverter assemblies from salvage dismantlers are rather common on ebay in the $USD 500 range. You might start by replacing just that, and not yet the transaxle. There is also an electrical coolant pump on that loop that should be replaced. When replacing the coolant (as always) pay particular attention to bleeding air and insuring proper coolant flow.

3) You could take a sample of the transaxle fluid and see what debris is present in its sump, as a physical test of whether things are damaged inside. There is a small library of other such fluid analyses, and if yours turns out very different, that certainly agrees with the diagnosis thus far.

4) Trying everything I can think of to avoid replacing the transaxle, because at the prices you mention, it is certainly the deal breaker.

5) If the car does end up being disposed for parts, the only options I know are to get a bid from a salvage dismantler, compare to sales prices of parts on ebay, and guess which would do you do you better in the long term. Eventually you could probably find buyers for the parts that commonly get banged up in wrecks, but I would not know if you want to dismantle the vehicle yourself. Every chunk of the car has inherent value, but only when you have a ready buyer for it.

Sorry I haven't any better news. Please keep us up to date on developments.