There's Copper in my oil

FL_Prius_Driver · 12-26-2007, 09:44 PM

The first oil change of the 2007 has occurred (5034 miles). I had the OEM oil I drained out analyzed. The significant readings are:

Ccpper: 79 ppm (as opposed to the 1 to 2 ppm expected)
Boron: 1 ppm (as opposed to the 3 to 20 ppm expected)
Silicon: 190 ppm (flagged as high)
TBN: 4.03

So far, by looking at others spreadsheets:
Mobil1 0W20 Oil analysis reports
Used Oil Analysis (UOA) or Analyses and Extended Oil Change Interval
it seems that copper is an additive of the OEM oil in the Prius and boron is an additive of US oil (at least Mobil One). The silicon is high. Glad I changed the oil and filter to get all the dirt out.

Now the extended change intervals start with 5k oil analysis using Amsoil 0W-30 and Amsoil filters.

patsparks · 12-26-2007, 10:35 PM

There may be copper in the lubricant used on the bearings during assembly to prevent galling of the bearings during first start up. I always used molybdenum grease and oil when rebuilding an engine to lube the bearings until oil pressure built up. There may also be copper in lubricants used on fasteners in the engine. I think silicone may come from sealants used in assembly.
Just having a stab mind you, other experts here will know more.

tochatihu · 12-27-2007, 12:50 AM

Patsparks, it had never occurred to me that copper might be a lube additive from the Toyota factory. I always supposed that it was an indication of break-in wear.

In either case, I would expect that Fl_Prius_driver will have much lower numbers next time around.

jayman · 12-27-2007, 09:25 AM

The only way to know for sure if the Cu is an additive is to get a virgin oil sample. WIth the oils I use, Cu is clearly not showing up.

With my FJ Cruiser, I sampled the oil at 2,237 km. AL was 9, CU was 48, Si was 187, and TBN was 2. Viscosity had sheared to 8 cSt. Yes, I had the oil changed based on those number

I refilled with a dealer Valvoline 5W-30, as it was a complimentary oil change. After 6,041 km sampled the oil. AL dropped to 4, CU to 7, and Si to 32. Unfortunately the viscosity had sheared to 7 cSt.

Went to Esso XD-3 0W-40 and it remained very stable. Recently tried Mobil 1 5W-20 as a "winter" oil, should get the results back soon to determine if it is holding up. If not, Esso XD-3 0W-40 year round

jayman · 12-27-2007, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tochatihu

it had never occurred to me that copper might be a lube additive

There are industrial lubes that contain Cu as part of the anti-seize properties. Loctite makes several such lubes that you brush on.

patsparks · 12-27-2007, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayman

There are industrial lubes that contain Cu as part of the anti-seize properties. Loctite makes several such lubes that you brush on.

That's the sort of thing I was thinking about. Hey it may not be assembly lube but who knows? I can't think of anywhere copper is used in an engine where it isn't covered by a layer of grey metal.

FL_Prius_Driver · 12-27-2007, 06:01 PM

If you look at the second spreadsheet in the original post, all the OEM Prius samples had a lot of copper but none of the samples after the first oil change. I certainly hope that this is the case, since I do not know what would be in the engine that would give those readings.

dorf · 12-28-2007, 04:57 AM

During my 1st oil change, I noticed that the oil was just different(color and texture) from any other oil that I have encountered whether in the automotive or aviation industries.

Seemed to sort of smell and feel .. (sort of)... like Synthetic turbine aviation oil but more slippery.

I'm guessing that it is a Toyota special formula break-in oil.

12-26-2007, 09:44 PM	#1
FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 1,845 My Car: 2001 Prius Model: Package: N/A Thanks: 4 Thanked 17 Times in 16 Posts Friends: 2	There's Copper in my oil The first oil change of the 2007 has occurred (5034 miles). I had the OEM oil I drained out analyzed. The significant readings are: Ccpper: 79 ppm (as opposed to the 1 to 2 ppm expected) Boron: 1 ppm (as opposed to the 3 to 20 ppm expected) Silicon: 190 ppm (flagged as high) TBN: 4.03 So far, by looking at others spreadsheets: Mobil1 0W20 Oil analysis reports Used Oil Analysis (UOA) or Analyses and Extended Oil Change Interval it seems that copper is an additive of the OEM oil in the Prius and boron is an additive of US oil (at least Mobil One). The silicon is high. Glad I changed the oil and filter to get all the dirt out. Now the extended change intervals start with 5k oil analysis using Amsoil 0W-30 and Amsoil filters.

12-26-2007, 10:35 PM	#2
patsparks An Aussie perspective Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Adelaide South Australia Posts: 9,229 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: N/A Package: Base Thanks: 124 Thanked 182 Times in 140 Posts Friends: 33	Re: There's Copper in my oil There may be copper in the lubricant used on the bearings during assembly to prevent galling of the bearings during first start up. I always used molybdenum grease and oil when rebuilding an engine to lube the bearings until oil pressure built up. There may also be copper in lubricants used on fasteners in the engine. I think silicone may come from sealants used in assembly. Just having a stab mind you, other experts here will know more.

12-27-2007, 12:50 AM	#3
tochatihu Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Kunming Yunnan China Posts: 2,411 My Car: 2001 Prius Model: Package: Pioneer #1 Thanks: 1 Thanked 38 Times in 38 Posts Friends: 14	Re: There's Copper in my oil Patsparks, it had never occurred to me that copper might be a lube additive from the Toyota factory. I always supposed that it was an indication of break-in wear. In either case, I would expect that Fl_Prius_driver will have much lower numbers next time around.

12-27-2007, 09:25 AM	#4
jayman Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Winnipeg Manitoba Posts: 11,564 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: Package: B Thanks: 35 Thanked 185 Times in 168 Posts Friends: 12	Re: There's Copper in my oil The only way to know for sure if the Cu is an additive is to get a virgin oil sample. WIth the oils I use, Cu is clearly not showing up. With my FJ Cruiser, I sampled the oil at 2,237 km. AL was 9, CU was 48, Si was 187, and TBN was 2. Viscosity had sheared to 8 cSt. Yes, I had the oil changed based on those number I refilled with a dealer Valvoline 5W-30, as it was a complimentary oil change. After 6,041 km sampled the oil. AL dropped to 4, CU to 7, and Si to 32. Unfortunately the viscosity had sheared to 7 cSt. Went to Esso XD-3 0W-40 and it remained very stable. Recently tried Mobil 1 5W-20 as a "winter" oil, should get the results back soon to determine if it is holding up. If not, Esso XD-3 0W-40 year round __________________ 2007 Toyota FJ Cruiser 5AT "C", Sun Fusion

12-27-2007, 06:01 PM	#7
FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 1,845 My Car: 2001 Prius Model: Package: N/A Thanks: 4 Thanked 17 Times in 16 Posts Friends: 2	Re: There's Copper in my oil If you look at the second spreadsheet in the original post, all the OEM Prius samples had a lot of copper but none of the samples after the first oil change. I certainly hope that this is the case, since I do not know what would be in the engine that would give those readings.

12-28-2007, 04:57 AM	#8
dorf Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Little Rock Posts: 119 My Car: 2007 Prius Model: Package: #2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	Re: There's Copper in my oil During my 1st oil change, I noticed that the oil was just different(color and texture) from any other oil that I have encountered whether in the automotive or aviation industries. Seemed to sort of smell and feel .. (sort of)... like Synthetic turbine aviation oil but more slippery. I'm guessing that it is a Toyota special formula break-in oil.