Traingle of Doom on start-up, then goes away

[jnfr]

My apologies for the length of this post, but I wanted to be precise, because this is such an odd little problem I have searched the forums for an hour or so, but have not found anything similar. Here is the situation.

We have a 2004 Prius with the No. 7 package - smart start and extra air bags, etc. We got one of the earliest of the 2004 cars, as we had been looking in 2003 and ordered an '04 when the '03s were not available.

We had to have the touch screen replaced (under warranty) in the first year when it went wonky, but other than that and some software upgrades have had no trouble with the car. We don't drive much; we're still under 25,000 miles. Normal maintenance when the car starts to flash at us, that's it.

In the past year, occasionally when I start the car the Red Triangle comes on. No other warnings come on - no check engine or anything - the other lights are just the regular lights that flash up before "ready". I start the car, and the triangle comes on, then the car starts as usual and the triangle goes away. This doesn't happen all the time, and is not consistent with weather or anything else I can tell.

I explained this to the dealer at last maintenance. They couldn't find anything in the diagnostics, and the car wouldn't misbehave for them (of course).

I started paying closer attention because this continued to happen. What I notice is that I can predict when this triangle will show because when I press the brake before pushing the Power button, the brake does not sit at the usual level - it either goes a bit further down, or it sits up a bit tighter under my foot. This alarms me a bit, because obviously I don't want anything wonky with the brakes.

This may not be related: The only other weird thing with the car started after we had to jump start the car (I am uncertain why the battery discharged. The car was off near as I can tell and it was not in cold weather.) After that the driver's side window, which has the automatic "up", would hit the top and return to the mid-window position any time you use the auto-up function. The manual seems to indicate that this is a malfunction of the jamming mechanism (in the way your garage door will go back up if it hits something blocking it). The mechanic at my dealer said to fix it he would have to reset a timer of some kind, which would require disassembling something and cost me $165. I opted not to do so, since the window closes fine with the ordinary "up" function. The mechanic was very surprised we had this problem, and said he'd only seen it in cars that had bodywork after accidents, which we have never had.

Do any of you have insight into what might be wrong here? Should I be concerned about my brakes? They don't feel mushy or out of sorts when driving, only when this odd glitch happens at start-up.

I get service at Mountain State Toyota in Denver. They are a major dealer here and presumably their Prius mechanics are well-trained. But is there something I can point them to, to get this fixed? Many, many thanks for any help you can give.

- Jennifer

[Rae Vynn]

I'm going to make a wild guess and say that your 12v battery is on its last gasp.
I'd also have the brakes checked. Just to be safe. Master cylinder comes to mind.

Welcome to Prius Chat!

[jnfr]

Thank you so much. I used to visit the forums years ago, before you were at this site, but haven't had much to say I guess

So the 12v battery, from what I've read here, goes out pretty regularly? What about the brakes? Is a Master Cylinder expensive to replace? I really don't want trouble with the brakes, of course.

[timberwolf]

The driver's window auto feature probably just needs to be reinitialized, and as you suspect - it most likely happened after the 12V Aux battery was drained. If your dealer is trying to charge you $165 to run a simple reset procedure I think they are trying to rip you off - I would recommend trying to find another dealer as I would be wary to trust them.

The procedure appears to be listed in a post below, the official procedure is covered in Toyota Service Bulletin No. PD010-03 (which I didn't find online).
http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-mo...tml#post251531

[richard schumacher]

Window reset? If the 12V battery is good (either as-is or after replacement), doesn't the window reset consist of merely running the window down completely and then up completely, once, using the switch? That did the trick after the 12V battery in mine was replaced.

[Patrick Wong]

Originally Posted by jnfr

...We have a 2004 Prius with the No. 7 package - smart start and extra air bags, etc. ... We don't drive much; we're still under 25,000 miles...

In the past year, occasionally when I start the car the Red Triangle comes on. No other warnings come on...

I started paying closer attention because this continued to happen. What I notice is that I can predict when this triangle will show because when I press the brake before pushing the Power button, the brake does not sit at the usual level - it either goes a bit further down, or it sits up a bit tighter under my foot. This alarms me a bit, because obviously I don't want anything wonky with the brakes.

...After that the driver's side window, which has the automatic "up", would hit the top and return to the mid-window position any time you use the auto-up function. The manual seems to indicate that this is a malfunction of the jamming mechanism (in the way your garage door will go back up if it hits something blocking it). The mechanic at my dealer said to fix it he would have to reset a timer of some kind, which would require disassembling something and cost me $165. I opted not to do so, since the window closes fine with the ordinary "up" function. The mechanic was very surprised we had this problem, and said he'd only seen it in cars that had bodywork after accidents, which we have never had.

Do any of you have insight into what might be wrong here? Should I be concerned about my brakes? They don't feel mushy or out of sorts when driving, only when this odd glitch happens at start-up...

Hi Jennifer,

Since you only drive ~5K miles per year, I suggest that you start by replacing the 12V auxiliary battery as lack of vehicle use and your cold winters both contribute to battery deterioration. Hopefully that will eliminate the red triangle. You may want to consider getting a battery tender to keep the new battery charged up when the car is not in use.

After replacing the battery, if you still notice brake pedal level variations, then let us know.

I haven't seen a prior complaint about the driver's window coming down by itself to mid-position - but if you can live with that, then no need to have it fixed.

[jnfr]

Thanks all. timberwolf, we actually tried that reset procedure a few times and couldn't get the window to function normally. But as Patrick notes, it's not hard to live with so I'm not worried about it. I only mentioned it in case the weird confluence of stuff led one of you more knowledgeable people to point out that we had gremlins or something.

It makes sense to do the battery change out and then see if we still have the weird brake thing going on before I worry too much. I know there are several threads here on replacing the 12v battery. My husband is reasonably handy, at least with the basics, so I'll check those threads and we'll give that a try.

[samiam]

Based on my own recent experience, it is almost certainly the 12v battery. Hard to diagnose because from what I can tell the "failure mode" is due to the brake accumulators not being able to come up to sufficient pressure when there's not enough current from the 12v aux battery. Trying it one or two more times will usually get it started because the pressure can build up after successive tries (or because the traction battery bleeds off enough voltage to the 12v).
One way to tell for sure is to listen for the sound of the accumulator when you put your foot on the brake (before you start the car). No sound? Not enough 12v power.

Also worth mentioning that after your husband installs a new 12v you may need to reset the power windows (if you have auto windows) and the back-up camera guides will need some road time to re-calibrate before they re-appear (if you have a reversing camera, with guides).

One more little thing. My dealer said there was only one model of 12v battery for the prius. When they ordered it for me, it didn't fit (too large). They went over to SuperCheap Auto and bought another (non-toyota) battery that did fit, and it was much cheaper than the "official" part.

[Patrick Wong]

Originally Posted by samiam

...One more little thing. My dealer said there was only one model of 12v battery for the prius. When they ordered it for me, it didn't fit (too large). They went over to SuperCheap Auto and bought another (non-toyota) battery that did fit, and it was much cheaper than the "official" part.

Since you live in New Zealand, you probably have access to a different selection of 12V batteries, especially those that have the smaller terminals required by Prius. In the US, a regular auto parts store typically will not carry a battery that will fit Prius without modification to the terminal connectors.

2G Prius in North America come equipped with two battery sizes. The smaller one is for vehicles without SE/SS while the larger one is for vehicles with the Smart Entry/Smart Start feature.

[patsparks]

Supercheap and Battery World sell batteries to suit Prius here. I suspect there are more.