Prius Engine HP upgrades

[longjohn931]

I don't quite understand the need to tweak these cars to increase performance, being it speed and HP or MPG. It seems like Toyota, with millions of dollars invested in research and development, has come up with a very good design and apparenly demand and sales justify this investment.
That said, it seems many can not leave well enough alone and try all kinds of tweaks to improve upon the original design and performance specifications.
I believe the current speed record, was set by a highly modified Prius, on the Salt Flats at just over 130 mph. And the current MPG record was set, by a group of our members, during a marathon weekend drive on a selected coarse using pulse and glide driving techniques which resulted in the Prius registering over 1000 miles on a single tank.
If you choose to make any adjustments to your new Prius, these are the limits of improvement you can expect. Your off the lot Prius, once broken in, should net you a top speed of about 105 mph and average mpg between 35-65 mpg (depending on your personal driving style, traffic patterns and terrain).
Good luck with any modifications you make but I wouldn't expect many if any performance improvements can be attained, you may also jepordize some safety (i.e. over inflated tires). I would suggest forgetting about modifications and enjoy your car as an extremely reliable, safe, economical and ecological friendly addition to your life style.

[HybridVigor]

Originally posted by ceric@Nov 12 2005, 03:24 AM
Intake and exhaust are always the starting points to enhance horse power. Best bang for buck. Engine breathing has been blocked by design for tranquility. Unblock the breathing as much as you feel comfortable, 5-10% hp increase could be achieved.
There is no K&N air filter for Prius yet. 

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As a side note, many Tundra owners on TundraSolutions.com(TS for short) have found that the K&N filters do not make a significant difference to horsepower. This is not to say that the FIPK (fuel injection performance kit?) is not effective, on the contrary I've heard that it is, but the filter alone has little effect. Additionally, tests comparing the particulate matter passing the OEM (Toyota) paper filters vs the K&N filters that I've heard about on TS suggest that although the K&N allows more air to pass, more particulate debris also passes. For these reasons, many of the TS folks have chosen not to use the K&N filters.

I find these results strange since so many (Dodge, Chevy, Ford...etc) truck owners sing the praises of K&N and they are widely respected as being an inexpensive performance boost - one of the few that is cost-effective. Nevertheless, I pass on to you the results found by others regarding the stock paper air filters. Additionally, based on the particulate information, I will not consider replacing my air filter with a K&N on the Prius (or my Tundra for that matter).

Perhaps this is a phenomenon unique to Toyota?
--Chris

[chrisek]

On break-in periods, you can search on many different enthusiast sites and you will read everything from "drop the synthetic in at mile 10" to "I changed at the 20k mark after progressively going from dino oil to half and half and working it up to full synthetic".

In the manual Toyota states that your Prius is equipped with a break-in oil and you should not change that until 3000 miles. Follow it as you see fit, at least it is the Toyota recommendation.

[hdrygas]

Originally posted by jamarimutt@Nov 12 2005, 03:14 AM
The use of dyno vs. syth oil has been discussed extensively in this forum, and no one has been able to show convincingly that the latter would offer any advantage in the Prius engine, which redlines at 5000 rpm (when the computer decides that it should), produces 76 hp, and never overheats, because in a traffic jam it's off most of the time. The advantage of synthetic oil for the Prius engine is psychological... you want the "best" for your new car because you treat it as if it were a loved one (the advertisers know it).

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Yes check out the debate. I was on the fence and the only argument that I bought into was to decrease oil imports. Not a huge thing, in fact a very small thing but it is something. Quart here Quart there and we are talking barrels.

[habel]

Originally posted by hdrygas@Nov 12 2005, 09:43 PM
Yes check out the debate.  I was on the fence and the only argument that I bought into was to decrease oil imports.  Not a huge thing, in fact a very small thing but it is something.  Quart here Quart there and we are talking barrels.

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True - but only as long as you do not drive MORE MILES with your Prius than with your previous vehicles... If I am remembering right, another tread on here (or a poll) showed that many Prius owners actually drives more now than before - and thereby at least partly cancelling out the lower consumption.

[windstrings]

Originally posted by longjohn931@Nov 12 2005, 08:25 AM
I don't quite understand the need to tweak these cars to increase performance, being it speed and HP or MPG. It seems like Toyota, with millions of dollars invested in research and development, has come up with a very good design and apparenly demand and sales justify this investment.
That said, it seems many can not leave well enough alone and try all kinds of tweaks to improve upon the original design and performance specifications.
I believe the current speed record, was set by a highly modified Prius, on the Salt Flats at just over 130 mph. And the current MPG record was set, by a group of our members, during a marathon weekend drive on a selected coarse using pulse and glide driving techniques which resulted in the Prius registering over 1000 miles on a single tank.
If you choose to make any adjustments to your new Prius, these are the limits of improvement you can expect. Your off the lot Prius, once broken in, should net you a top speed of about 105 mph and average mpg between 35-65 mpg (depending on your personal driving style, traffic patterns and terrain).
Good luck with any modifications you make but I wouldn't expect many if any performance improvements can be attained, you may also jepordize some safety (i.e. over inflated tires). I would suggest forgetting about modifications and enjoy your car as an extremely reliable, safe, economical and ecological friendly addition to your life style.

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I understand your point of leaving well enough alone... However... as you know how open source software can grow leaps and bounds when many work on a project at once!... Similar achievments can be obtained when a company like Toyota does not lock up and make everything so propietory that no one can work on it and helps in the technology rather than hinder it.

My hat is off to toyota for its hybrid breakthroughs, but there is alot more technology out there that big companies won't and haven't revealed because they have not yet realized and recouped their existing investments in current technology. For that very reason ... we still use oil!!!!!!!!!!

There are alot of smart people out here and in the world.. . if we can all put our heads together we can accelerate and aid developement.
As you know there are folks tampering with the hybrid systems and are already getting 250mph with plug in and larger lithium ion batteries and tweaking the computer...... all we need are the batteries now! Why has Toyota not done this yet?... I can't speak for them, but battery avaliability at a reasonable price is one major key.
We should not be threatened by poeple tinkering... it can only help.

I know its seems like we are violating or reaping sacrilage on an awesome car, but most of who love to tinker stay within the limits of our knowledge. There are untold inventions that have benifited mankind from others working off of someone elses progress or invention.

Toyota's millions of research has built a nice car, but toyota wants to make money without cutting their own throats.... technology accelerating too fast makes the whole system crash without the infrastructure to support it.

We are only helping the process along and keeping them honest. Many companies are under pressure to accomplish because of what the layman has uncovered.
If we waited on Toyota's millions to reveal a car that would do 100+ mph we may be waiting along time? But because the simple lay person found out the keys.. it makes Toyota get on the ball and bring it to pass before their competitors do.

As long as these discoveries are kept hidden... we have the carberators that get 100MPH that sit on a shelf so that the public never see's!. The big companies try to buy the rights and buy them off before the cat gets out of the bag!.. Microsoft is a good example... but because of open source... we now have firefox and many other useful tools that forces the big boys to rise up to the new challenge are get caught holding the money bag with nothing in it! <_<
I love to hear stories of people's tinkering projects!!!!
Some folks are tinkerers and some bake bread!

[cwerdna]

Originally posted by longjohn931@Nov 12 2005, 07:25 AM
I don't quite understand the need to tweak these cars to increase performance, being it speed and HP or MPG. It seems like Toyota, with millions of dollars invested in research and development, has come up with a very good design and apparenly demand and sales justify this investment.
That said, it seems many can not leave well enough alone and try all kinds of tweaks to improve upon the original design and performance specifications.
I believe the current speed record, was set by a highly modified Prius, on the Salt Flats at just over 130 mph. And the current MPG record was set, by a group of our members, during a marathon weekend drive on a selected coarse using pulse and glide driving techniques which resulted in the Prius registering over 1000 miles on a single tank.

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Cars in general cost MANY millions of dollars to develop, yet if you watch enthusiast boards for many other cars (maxima.org, my350z.com and rx8club.com for example), you'll see people are interested in modding them for better performance, handling, etc.

If you want to read more on the very highly modified Prius at the Bonneville Salt Flats, see http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?se...article_id=8695 and http://hybridcars.about.com/od/news/...slandspeed.htm.

[priusenvy]

Originally posted by HybridVigor@Nov 12 2005, 07:47 AM
As a side note, many Tundra owners on TundraSolutions.com(TS for short) have found that the K&N filters do not make a significant difference to horsepower. 

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I think it's largely a placebo effect. They hear this big "vroosh" from the intake after they install the filter, and it fools them into thinking that they're experiencing increased performance. I read a few other car forums and the consensus is that they provide no benefit, and have the disadvantage of passing more dirt, and therefore contributing to increased engine wear. I've tried K&N filters in every car I've ever owned (except the two Prii), thinking that maybe this would be the one that would benefit from a less restrictive intake, but all I ever experienced was a lot more noise and never any increase in performance or mpg. I ended up throwing all of them out since all I was getting was more dirt in the oil.

There seem to be a few cars out there that have severely restricted intakes that can benefit from some more flow. But consider the following:

1) K&N filters pass several hundred percent more dirt than a paper filter

2) Once dirty, the K&N filters don't flow any better than a paper filter

3) The Prius has a low-revving, 1.5 liter engine, using the Atkinson/Miller cycle, which takes in less than a full cylinder volume of charge each cycle.

Given the Prius' very modest flow requirements, I'd be very surprised to hear that it was restricted by the stock paper filter, and that a K&N filter would provide any benefit. Maybe the guy that dyno'd his Prius could try it with and without a K&N filter to see if there's any measurable difference.

[longjohn931]

[quote]
I understand your point of leaving well enough alone... However... as you know how open source software can grow leaps and bounds when many work on a project at once!... Similar achievments can be obtained when a company like Toyota does not lock up and make everything so propietory that no one can work on it and helps in the technology rather than hinder it. .............................

Windstrings, very valid points,
I don't completely disagree, today's many automotive, all products for that matter, have evolved through experimentation or "tweaking" throught the years, be it corporate sponsored or good old private ingenuity. But I do think that all those super carburators you mentioned are sitting on a shelf in "area 51" along side the alien space ship. New breakthroughs don't stay hidden. Even if oil were made obsolete, someone would find a way to market it, look at bottled water! A multi billion dollar industry based on the most common element on the planet.
I have a hard time understanding the cost/benefit for some of the products and proceedures expressed in this thread and many previous. My Prius is a $30,000 investment that is a primary means of transportation, the first "new" car I have bought in over 20 years (up till now only bought used vehicles due the high off the lot depreciation), I do not have an engineering or mechanical background and would not choose to expriment on this car or purchase after market gizmos that tout improved performance benefits and chance voiding my warranty or disabling the car for repairs. I understand their is desire and inteligence, of many owners, to understand the workings of this vehicle and I am thankful for their contributions to this forum. I am only suggesting to those owners, who are mechanically challenged, as myself, that any expectations of improved performance are currently limited and their will probably be some kind of trade off for expected improvement if any. Thast said as an earlier post stated, changes pesonalize your vehicle and that is a good thing.

[windstrings]

But I do think that all those super carburators you mentioned are sitting on a shelf in "area 51" along side the alien space ship.

Maybe, but It doesn't take long for technology to take a different direction if things set around too long.....

New breakthroughs don't stay hidden. Even if oil were made obsolete, someone would find a way to market it, look at bottled water! A multi billion dollar industry based on the most common element on the planet.

Exactly!.. thats why until we can get a resource that they can't "bottle and sell to us".. like home wind plants, solar etc to feed our cars at night and while at work, then they will still find a way to control us and get our money! At least home electricity is "a little safer" because they would have to raise rates on all and everything in order to target the automobile driver who uses it for his fuel. Thats why for now.. I'm all for bigger battery banks and plug in!

Hydrogen is hopeless to be better than oil unless they also make a way for us to make it out of water and not keep that technology hidden for only them to market.
Look at propane!... We have so much propane in caverns under the earth our machines can't even register it all?.. we don't even know how much we really have?... yet do you see propane at every gas station easily accessible?... and what do they charge per gallon?..... Propane was the big rage years ago.. it was going to save Gods green earth!!!.. its byproduct when using is H20!.. in fact you can burn propane in your home or camp tent "as I do" and the byproduct of gasses it produces wont' even hurt you!.... The only way you can get into trouble is if your in an enclosed area and it merely eats up all your oxygen.... And very effiecient fuel!... and why hasn't it taken over in place of oil?.. Big business didn't find it advantageous to do so!..

I hope not to depress everybody, but just bring some balance of reality to the nivana of the prius!...

If they can totally control what we pay for fuel "whatever the fuel is", as long as its still a commodity like oil?.. And just because it may comes from and inexaustable supply, that doesn't mean they won't charge what they won't for it?..
WEEEE have to be able to access it on our own, or we individually are still in slavery to their control. True, Hydrogen will help the world, but not if its technology is only accessed by corporations that want your money?
Even if they make an engine that will run off of water.... they will find away to make them so the water has to be a certain "type" of water.. it has to be purified a certain way.. or a certain additive has to be in it.. or it has to be ionized a certain way... there is always a gimmic to control the commodity if possible.... thats big buisiness!

I'm only confirming what Longjohn said about the free element of water!..If they can charge us for water to drink more than they do for milk?..... why do we think they will give us the abundant hydrogen for a reasonable price out of the goodness of their little pea pickin hearts??????? Heck bottled water cost almost as much as some liquor!.. or wine.. and think about what it takes and the work involved to make wine or milk?

Look at diesel?... we could make much fuel more by producing biodiesel.. growing fields of it and putting our farmers to work!, but then they would slow down production of oil to match demand and still charge us alot per gallon?

Why do you think the government "pays" farmers not to produce!.. they are contolling supply and demand as to not tilt the economy!....

And who benifits from the balance of economy? Lets say it all together again class!... Big buisiness!!! :P There is really no escape on an individual level until we can access our own power on an individual level. Or use energy so much more effecient than our neighbor that it gives us an edge... welcome to the prius!!!

Whats giving us the edge right now.. is that we are ahead of the game... until all of america becomes gas efficient and uses less.. the price for us that use more effiecient vehicles will give us that edge.

In fact.. presently, I feel like if they made every car in america where it could get 200 miles per gallon tomorrow, within a year, they would simply raise the price of gas because they would quit producing so much to let the supply match the demand?.. There is a reason we have not built more refineries to produce gas in the US since I believe what is it?.. the 60's?! Correct me if I'm wrong.. I'm sure you will!

We still have lots of oil, but because they decided to take a nice hefty 30+ billion dollar profit in only one quarter.. it has gotten the publics attention... our main threat is big corporate oil companies.... Its like air... if they charge us 10.00/ gal.. we still have to buy it right?... whats the alternative? You gonna quit driving?

I understand their is desire and inteligence, of many owners, to understand the workings of this vehicle and I am thankful for their contributions to this forum.

Me too!!

said as an earlier post stated, changes pesonalize your vehicle and that is a good thing.

Agreed! .... cheers!