General motor crisis

Jonnycat26 · 10-09-2006, 04:51 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(withersea @ Oct 9 2006, 04:44 PM) [snapback]330205[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

Can you say "Pilot"?
[/b]

Pilot... 18/24MPG.

LX470... 13/17MPG.

There's a big difference. Surely you see that?

ScottY · 10-09-2006, 04:55 PM

I actually agree with Johnnycat this time... have you see their new FJ Cruiser (2WD 18/22mpg)? How about the Sequioa (2WD V6, 18/22mpg), the 4-Runner (2WD V6 18/22), the Land Cruser (13/17), the Lexus GX (15/19) ,or the Lexus LX (13/17)?

Those are all EPA estimates, you know how accurate they are when it comes to real world mileage. My love for the Prius doesn't blind me from the fact that Toyota also makes gas guzzlers like most other car manufacturers do.

Beryl Octet · 10-09-2006, 05:01 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Oct 9 2006, 04:34 PM) [snapback]330201[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

Which is it.. the Sequioa or the 4-Runner that is a guzzler? Or is it both?

What's the name of that big Lexus, ya know, the one that looks like a tank?

Oh... maybe the LX 470... it does manage somewhere around 14MPG combined.

Don't kid yourself... Toyota makes guzzlers, just like they all do (well, okay... not Honda).
[/b]

Good point. My Tundra gets 18 for most of my usage, so when I was talking to my neighbor about his Chevy 2500 4x4, that gets 12, I feel 66% less guilt about driving a V8.

Jonnycat26 · 10-09-2006, 05:07 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Beryl Octet @ Oct 9 2006, 05:01 PM) [snapback]330217[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

Good point. My Tundra gets 18 for most of my usage, so when I was talking to my neighbor about his Chevy 2500 4x4, that gets 12, I feel 66% less guilt about driving a V8.
[/b]

It's kinda cute that you think the two trucks are in the same league. One is soft and a Toy... one is a Silverado 2500. Granted not a lot of people use the silverado as it's meant to be used... but it's a workhorse. Not a toy.

Crewctlvr · 10-09-2006, 05:20 PM

First, I appreciate the thoughtfulness and accuracy of the posts above. Second, according to an article I read recently in the New Yorker GM has a legacy cost of about $1,500 per vehicle. According to the New Yorker article, in the 1940's GM devised a pension plan where the costs of pensions were borne by the company and not the industry, which was the union’s idea that first surfaced in Dayton, OH. Historically, GM has had some stellar management decisions but today the bad management decisions are giving them the problems. In the past GM could provide inferior products to a non-critical customer. For the most part those days are gone and the "We have always done it that way" culture of GM needs to change or the company will ultimately fail. A perfect example of the inferior products is the hybrid assist products that GM is touting as hybrids.

sl7vk · 10-09-2006, 05:43 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Oct 9 2006, 04:51 PM) [snapback]330208[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

Pilot... 18/24MPG.

LX470... 13/17MPG.

There's a big difference. Surely you see that?
[/b]

Have you been shorting Toyota stock, or what is your deal with the company?

I'll agree, Toyota got sucked (no pun intended) into the large vehicle race..... It seems they entered too late, and that is why great deals abound for large Toyotas on lots across the country. But they never forgot what got them there, the sedan. Until 1 of the big 3 can make a car that rivals the Accord or the Camry, they will be screwed. The sedan and not the Ford f-150 is where the future will lay for all automakers.

Sufferin' Prius Envy · 10-09-2006, 06:04 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Beryl Octet @ Oct 9 2006, 02:01 PM) [snapback]330217[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

Good point. My Tundra gets 18 for most of my usage, so when I was talking to my neighbor about his Chevy 2500 4x4, that gets 12, I feel 66% less guilt about driving a V8.[/b]

You are deluding yourself. <_<
Shouldn't you be feeling 1/3 less guilt?

If your neighbor should be feeling 100% guilt at 12 MPG, you with your 1/3rd better mileage could attest to 1/3 less guilt.

In reality, shouldn't everyone* who drives an ICE feel 100% guilt.

* Prius Smugness is not 100% guilt free.

Beryl Octet · 10-09-2006, 06:22 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sufferin' Prius Envy @ Oct 9 2006, 06:04 PM) [snapback]330255[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

You are deluding yourself. <_<
Shouldn't you be feeling 1/3 less guilt?

If your neighbor should be feeling 100% guilt at 12 MPG, you with your 1/3rd better mileage could attest to 1/3 less guilt.

In reality, shouldn't everyone* who drives an ICE feel 100% guilt.

* Prius Smugness is not 100% guilt free.
[/b]

We put about 15K / yr on our Prius and less than half that on the Tundra, so we are averaging out somewhere in the middle. Could I be doing better? No doubt about it.

darelldd · 10-09-2006, 06:30 PM

I'll be as concise as I can be.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AlbertoC67 @ Oct 6 2006, 01:53 PM) [snapback]329153[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

Why a great company like GM has gone so down with the best technology on hydrogen in the drawer?[/b]

The only folks who think that GM has the best H2 technology is GM. That FC tech is about the only modern tech that they've been pushing for the last ten years really says it all. GM isn't producing anything that lowers our energy consumption TODAY. They have been banking on (in theory) making something that'll help us in 20 or 30 years.

Quote:

Why they goes on producing guzzlers looking at Toyota growing up producing hybrid cars?
I don't understand.[/b]

Everybody who's done much automotive biz in the US has built guzzlers. GM, Ford, Toyota, BMW, VW, Mercedes, and to a lesser extent, Honda. GM could have taken the tiller and started the laborious process of turning that lumbering ship around 10 years ago when they had the EV edge on EVERYBODY. They were 4th and goal on the 1 yard line. They punted.

GM has simply been betting on the status quo for way too long. It was just a few short years ago when they claimed that American drivers didn't want hybrids. What is it they say now? They'll be at the forefront of PHEV technology? Gosh, will this take away from the FCV research?

And Tony: It takes WAY more than 3x the energy to make H2 than what you'll get back out at the wheels of a FCV. In fact it takes between 3-4x as much energy to run a FCV as it does to run a battery EV... which is obviously a lossy system as well.

Pinto Girl · 10-09-2006, 07:57 PM

They don't call it 'General Mismanagement' for nothing.

GM's problems, in my opinon, stem from their legacy labor costs, combined with poor brand management, combined with a loss of focus on the core business: selling automobiles (Ford, too).

This is a one-two-three punch which, amazingly, they've inflicted upon themselves (with generous assistance from the UAW).

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10-09-2006, 04:55 PM	#12
ScottY Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 1,249 My Car: 2005 Prius Model: Package: #3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts Friends: 1	I actually agree with Johnnycat this time... have you see their new FJ Cruiser (2WD 18/22mpg)? How about the Sequioa (2WD V6, 18/22mpg), the 4-Runner (2WD V6 18/22), the Land Cruser (13/17), the Lexus GX (15/19) ,or the Lexus LX (13/17)? Those are all EPA estimates, you know how accurate they are when it comes to real world mileage. My love for the Prius doesn't blind me from the fact that Toyota also makes gas guzzlers like most other car manufacturers do.

10-09-2006, 05:20 PM	#15
Crewctlvr Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1 My Car: Model: Package: Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	First, I appreciate the thoughtfulness and accuracy of the posts above. Second, according to an article I read recently in the New Yorker GM has a legacy cost of about $1,500 per vehicle. According to the New Yorker article, in the 1940's GM devised a pension plan where the costs of pensions were borne by the company and not the industry, which was the union’s idea that first surfaced in Dayton, OH. Historically, GM has had some stellar management decisions but today the bad management decisions are giving them the problems. In the past GM could provide inferior products to a non-critical customer. For the most part those days are gone and the "We have always done it that way" culture of GM needs to change or the company will ultimately fail. A perfect example of the inferior products is the hybrid assist products that GM is touting as hybrids.

10-09-2006, 07:57 PM	#20
Pinto Girl Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 2,372 My Car: 2006 Prius Model: Package: #9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts Friends: 0	They don't call it 'General Mismanagement' for nothing. GM's problems, in my opinon, stem from their legacy labor costs, combined with poor brand management, combined with a loss of focus on the core business: selling automobiles (Ford, too). This is a one-two-three punch which, amazingly, they've inflicted upon themselves (with generous assistance from the UAW).