General motor crisis

AlbertoC67 · 10-06-2006, 04:53 PM

Hi Guys,
I have a two questions in my mind:
Why a great company like GM has gone so down with the best technology on hydrogen in the drawer?
Why they goes on producing guzzlers looking at Toyota growing up producing hybrid cars?
I don't understand.

AlbertoC67
from Italy

ditto231 · 10-06-2006, 04:57 PM

They are greedy and get kick backs for oil companies.

Prius The First · 10-06-2006, 09:51 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ditto @ Oct 6 2006, 02:57 PM) [snapback]329155[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

They are greedy and get kick backs for oil companies.
[/b]

Agreed. Greedy and heads up their tailpipes.

**TonyPSchaefer** · 10-06-2006, 11:26 PM

Keep in mind, guys, that the Alberto might not have the background in understanding American Capitalism and short-sightedness that you have. Therefore, a little more explaining is in order. And I'm not the correct person to do the explanation justice, but I'll give it a kick-start.

About the Hydrogen:
There are those who believe that GM's efforts in the hydrogen arena are a waste of time and money. One thing to consider is the creation of hydrogen. The most recent numbers I've heard is that it takes three times the amount of energy to create the hydrogen than the amount of energy you can get out of it. I realize that's vague, but it's sort of the same as rechargeable batteries. Someone might claim that rechargeable batteries provide pollution-free energy but they neglect the fact that coal was burned to generate the electricity that was used to charge them. Not a very good analogy, but it's all I've got right now.

Now Iceland is extremely lucky in that they have an abundance of geothermal energy they can use to generate hydrogen; we are not so lucky. In 2004, according to the Environmental Protection Agency, 51% of the electricity generated in the United States was done through the burning of coal. With the three-to-one ratio, you can imagine ho much more coal would be burned to power our cars.

Then there are those who insist that if all the hydrogen were created using Green Power we wouldn't have to worry about burning more coal. That's a very nice pipe dream, but again, from the EPA, Renewable Energy accounted for 9% of the U.S.'s energy in 2004. 9%! That's it. To meet the needs of the drivers on the road, we would need a whole lot more renewable energy and they don't seem to be cropping up fast enough.

And I haven't even gotten into distribution and all that fun stuff.

About Gas Guzzlers:
That's just pure economics and ego.

I heard some time ago that the cost of manufacturing an SUV is not much more than the cost of producing an economy car. On the other hand, you can sell an SUV for up to three times what you can sell an economy car. So their Return on Investment and pure profit is considerably higher. And this is true for all car manufacturers.

About ego, Americans have been trained to lust for big, flashy, overly-hyper-consuming tendencies. As long as that is the societal norm, there will be manufacturers looking to take advantage of it. Of course, that's not to say that some of the sellers aren't perpetuating the beliefs.

Well, that's my two-minute take on it. There is layer upon layer of detail and argument about both topics. I'm sure others will concur with me or rip my thoughts to threads. Either way, I hope I've gotten the ball rolling.

eagle33199 · 10-09-2006, 02:57 PM

To add to Tony's description:

hydrogen
the way this works in cars is actually pretty neat - just pop in the fuel cell and you're off. There are many benifits to it, as well (such as no need for batteries), but there are drawbacks (for example, they do very poorly in cold weather). As Tony said, producing hydrogen solely for the sake of producing it is rather wasteful when it comes to energy. However, there are some industries (can't remember what) that produce hydrogen as an unwanted by-product. There's a company in Pittsburgh that is producing hydrogen power plants for these companies, the idea being that they can produce all or most of their energy off this by-product. it's a plus for industrial hydrogen, but doesn't help auto hydrogen.

Gas Guzzlers
Everyone asks why Detroit makes all these guzzlers while toyota doesn't. It's actually rather simple... rewind the earth back 10-15 years - Guzzlers were all the rage. The bigger the SUV, the better. Gas was cheep back then. Large cars implied weath, prestige, etc. Fast forward to today, and you see that, at the time, Detroit had made the winning bet. Now, it doesn't look so hot, and Toyota, etc seems to be making the winning bet with Hybrids. If we fast forward another 10 years, it may seem that detroit made the winning bet with hydrogen and toyota's lagging behind with their hybrids.

The basic difference between the companies is one of philosophy. Toyota tries to sell cars by offering something that is effecient and practicle (for the most part). Detroit tries to sell cars by appealing to your ego and upselling every feature imaginable. Both strategies work, one just works better in different environments.

Marlin · 10-09-2006, 03:11 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Oct 9 2006, 02:57 PM) [snapback]330140[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

It's actually rather simple... rewind the earth back 10-15 years - Guzzlers were all the rage. The bigger the SUV, the better. Gas was cheep back then. Large cars implied weath, prestige, etc. Fast forward to today, and you see that, at the time, Detroit had made the winning bet. [/b]

Yup, and back then there was a mad scramble by luxury automobile manufacturers to incorporate SUVs into their lineup because the SUVs sold by the American manufacturers were cutting deeply into the luxury car market. People were spending their $30,000 to $50,000 on SUVs instead of on luxury sedans and the luxury manufacturers were hurting big time.

That's why just about every automaker that sells in the US has SUVs in their vehicle lineup. Even Porsche has an SUV these days.

At the time, it was the foreign manufacturers that had been caught with their pants down. Now it's the US automaker's turn.

Jonnycat26 · 10-09-2006, 04:00 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Oct 9 2006, 02:57 PM) [snapback]330140[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

Gas Guzzlers
Everyone asks why Detroit makes all these guzzlers while toyota doesn't.[/b]

Just FYI... Toyota makes some of the biggest and most obscene guzzlers around.

Beryl Octet · 10-09-2006, 04:31 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Oct 9 2006, 04:00 PM) [snapback]330185[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

Just FYI... Toyota makes some of the biggest and most obscene guzzlers around.
[/b]

I picture an H2 with a bunch of "support the troops" magnets when I think of obscene gas guzzlers, now that Ford stopped production on the Excursion, what did you have in mind in the Toyota line?

Jonnycat26 · 10-09-2006, 04:34 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Beryl Octet @ Oct 9 2006, 04:31 PM) [snapback]330200[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

I picture an H2 with a bunch of "support the troops" magnets when I think of obscene gas guzzlers, now that Ford stopped production on the Excursion, what did you have in mind in the Toyota line?
[/b]

Which is it.. the Sequioa or the 4-Runner that is a guzzler? Or is it both?

What's the name of that big Lexus, ya know, the one that looks like a tank?

Oh... maybe the LX 470... it does manage somewhere around 14MPG combined.

Don't kid yourself... Toyota makes guzzlers, just like they all do (well, okay... not Honda).

withersea · 10-09-2006, 04:44 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Oct 9 2006, 04:34 PM) [snapback]330201[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

Which is it.. the Sequioa or the 4-Runner that is a guzzler? Or is it both?

What's the name of that big Lexus, ya know, the one that looks like a tank?

Oh... maybe the LX 470... it does manage somewhere around 14MPG combined.

Don't kid yourself... Toyota makes guzzlers, just like they all do (well, okay... not Honda).
[/b]

Can you say "Pilot"?

10-06-2006, 11:26 PM	#4
TonyPSchaefer Your Friendly Moderator Join Date: May 2004 Location: Far-North Chicagoland Posts: 10,497 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: Package: #9 Thanks: 39 Thanked 164 Times in 105 Posts Friends: 23	Keep in mind, guys, that the Alberto might not have the background in understanding American Capitalism and short-sightedness that you have. Therefore, a little more explaining is in order. And I'm not the correct person to do the explanation justice, but I'll give it a kick-start. About the Hydrogen: There are those who believe that GM's efforts in the hydrogen arena are a waste of time and money. One thing to consider is the creation of hydrogen. The most recent numbers I've heard is that it takes three times the amount of energy to create the hydrogen than the amount of energy you can get out of it. I realize that's vague, but it's sort of the same as rechargeable batteries. Someone might claim that rechargeable batteries provide pollution-free energy but they neglect the fact that coal was burned to generate the electricity that was used to charge them. Not a very good analogy, but it's all I've got right now. Now Iceland is extremely lucky in that they have an abundance of geothermal energy they can use to generate hydrogen; we are not so lucky. In 2004, according to the Environmental Protection Agency, 51% of the electricity generated in the United States was done through the burning of coal. With the three-to-one ratio, you can imagine ho much more coal would be burned to power our cars. Then there are those who insist that if all the hydrogen were created using Green Power we wouldn't have to worry about burning more coal. That's a very nice pipe dream, but again, from the EPA, Renewable Energy accounted for 9% of the U.S.'s energy in 2004. 9%! That's it. To meet the needs of the drivers on the road, we would need a whole lot more renewable energy and they don't seem to be cropping up fast enough. And I haven't even gotten into distribution and all that fun stuff. About Gas Guzzlers: That's just pure economics and ego. I heard some time ago that the cost of manufacturing an SUV is not much more than the cost of producing an economy car. On the other hand, you can sell an SUV for up to three times what you can sell an economy car. So their Return on Investment and pure profit is considerably higher. And this is true for all car manufacturers. About ego, Americans have been trained to lust for big, flashy, overly-hyper-consuming tendencies. As long as that is the societal norm, there will be manufacturers looking to take advantage of it. Of course, that's not to say that some of the sellers aren't perpetuating the beliefs. Well, that's my two-minute take on it. There is layer upon layer of detail and argument about both topics. I'm sure others will concur with me or rip my thoughts to threads. Either way, I hope I've gotten the ball rolling. __________________ Proud father of Priapus: the '04 Tideland BC9 with an OEM EV button and sense of self-righteousness Current Mileage Chicago Prius Group Website Chicago Hybrid Group on FaceBook Find me on faceBook

10-09-2006, 02:57 PM	#5
eagle33199 Platinum Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 4,283 My Car: 2006 Prius Model: Package: #7 Thanks: 35 Thanked 70 Times in 40 Posts Friends: 3	To add to Tony's description: hydrogen the way this works in cars is actually pretty neat - just pop in the fuel cell and you're off. There are many benifits to it, as well (such as no need for batteries), but there are drawbacks (for example, they do very poorly in cold weather). As Tony said, producing hydrogen solely for the sake of producing it is rather wasteful when it comes to energy. However, there are some industries (can't remember what) that produce hydrogen as an unwanted by-product. There's a company in Pittsburgh that is producing hydrogen power plants for these companies, the idea being that they can produce all or most of their energy off this by-product. it's a plus for industrial hydrogen, but doesn't help auto hydrogen. Gas Guzzlers Everyone asks why Detroit makes all these guzzlers while toyota doesn't. It's actually rather simple... rewind the earth back 10-15 years - Guzzlers were all the rage. The bigger the SUV, the better. Gas was cheep back then. Large cars implied weath, prestige, etc. Fast forward to today, and you see that, at the time, Detroit had made the winning bet. Now, it doesn't look so hot, and Toyota, etc seems to be making the winning bet with Hybrids. If we fast forward another 10 years, it may seem that detroit made the winning bet with hydrogen and toyota's lagging behind with their hybrids. The basic difference between the companies is one of philosophy. Toyota tries to sell cars by offering something that is effecient and practicle (for the most part). Detroit tries to sell cars by appealing to your ego and upselling every feature imaginable. Both strategies work, one just works better in different environments. __________________

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10-06-2006, 04:53 PM	#1
AlbertoC67 Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Lombardy - Italy Posts: 47 My Car: 2006 Prius Model: II Package: No Package Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	Hi Guys, I have a two questions in my mind: Why a great company like GM has gone so down with the best technology on hydrogen in the drawer? Why they goes on producing guzzlers looking at Toyota growing up producing hybrid cars? I don't understand. AlbertoC67 from Italy

10-06-2006, 04:57 PM	#2
ditto231 Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 65 My Car: Model: Package: Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	They are greedy and get kick backs for oil companies.