Prius Myths and their Rebuttals

[JimboK]

Originally Posted by chevysuburban

mr. jimbo,
I do not have a link as it was published in a local newspaper. For the study, the reporter had owners of different types of cars fill out questionnaires discussing their own beliefs and what they thought of those who held other beliefs. while calling the results of this report fact may not be completely accurate as the survey only questioned 100 owners in each of the categories (ranging from large SUV to hybrid owner), it does offer evidence of a common occurrence. Notice that I said 'more likely' instead of 'always'. Prius owners were the leader in what could be called intolerance in that they believed those who held different opinions than them could be considered "uniformed" and "ignorant". In a way, you are simply supporting my information, as you are assuming that, because I point out something that you disagree with, I am just interested in causing trouble and don't care about credibility. I don't have a problem with you questioning or disagreeing with my information, however, please do so in a way that at least suggests some openness to a view that you don't believe in.

as for my username and other post, I'm, proud of my suburban as I'm sure you are of your prius and I don't have any problem buying gas for a car that I like, consequently, my mpg's are not really an issue. I posted them to try to remind other forum members that there are other drivers on the road who have places to be and would rather not be stuck behind somebody who is more concerned with their digital mpg display than they are with being courteous towards other drivers and at least going the speed limit.
I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with what I say, the reason I am on this forum is actually to get to know different opinions.

Sorry, it's not a matter of intolerance of your views. If you spend some time reading my posts you'll see I'm quite tolerant.

But you weren't inviting open dialog. You said nothing in your first two posts about your views, about wanting to learn those of others, or of encouraging courtesy on the road. Instead you bragged about getting 10 MPG in the "I beat the EPA" thread and you cite as fact an unverifiable study in the "Prius myths" thread. In the process you came across as trollish. Of that I am intolerant. Your user name, though not trollish like others we've seen, isn't exactly reassuring. It's OK by me to be proud of your vehicle, but we've seen lots of names along the lines of "HummersRock" and "MyHemiIsTheBomb" from those whose sole goal is trolling and flamebaiting.

OK, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I'll accept at face value that what you say here is sincere. Now, back it up with constructive dialog -- in another thread. We're off topic here.

[nooaah]

Originally Posted by chevysuburban

mr. jimbo,
I do not have a link as it was published in a local newspaper. For the study, the reporter had owners of different types of cars fill out questionnaires discussing their own beliefs and what they thought of those who held other beliefs. while calling the results of this report fact may not be completely accurate as the survey only questioned 100 owners in each of the categories (ranging from large SUV to hybrid owner), it does offer evidence of a common occurrence. Notice that I said 'more likely' instead of 'always'. Prius owners were the leader in what could be called intolerance in that they believed those who held different opinions than them could be considered "uniformed" and "ignorant". In a way, you are simply supporting my information, as you are assuming that, because I point out something that you disagree with, I am just interested in causing trouble and don't care about credibility. I don't have a problem with you questioning or disagreeing with my information, however, please do so in a way that at least suggests some openness to a view that you don't believe in.

as for my username and other post, I'm, proud of my suburban as I'm sure you are of your prius and I don't have any problem buying gas for a car that I like, consequently, my mpg's are not really an issue. I posted them to try to remind other forum members that there are other drivers on the road who have places to be and would rather not be stuck behind somebody who is more concerned with their digital mpg display than they are with being courteous towards other drivers and at least going the speed limit.
I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with what I say, the reason I am on this forum is actually to get to know different opinions.

So basically you made an account here because you got stuck behind a slow driving Prius. Got it.

I love when I'm going 40 in a 35 and one of these folks driving their tanks still is riding my ass and getting visibly upset.

[efusco]

Another nice article rebutting the Dust-to-Dust BS, well referenced and clearly explained:
Is it possible that a Hummer's better for the environment than a Prius is? - By Brendan I. Koerner - Slate Magazine

the green lanternTank vs. Hybrid

Is it possible that a Hummer's better for the environment than a Prius is?

By Brendan I. Koerner
Posted Tuesday, March 18, 2008, at 7:39 AM ET I'm shopping for new wheels and was considering a Prius. But one of my co-workers insists that the Prius isn't nearly as green as Toyota boasts, due to the energy required to manufacture the car's battery. The guy also claims that scientific studies have shown that a Prius is more environmentally harmful than a Hummer is. Really?
Like those old chestnuts about poisoned ATM deposit envelopes and the dangers of flashing your headlights, the bizarre anti-Prius meme cited by your colleague refuses to die. It keeps making the e-mail rounds every few months, with multiple versions landing in the Lantern's inbox. There's a minuscule grain of truth to the allegation, since the Prius' nickel-metal hydride battery is a more complicated beast than your typical EverStart. But the rest of the case against the best-selling hybrid? Malarkey.
The Hummer-beats-the-Prius talking point began with this report (PDF) from CNW Marketing Research. The report, titled "Dust to Dust," was cited in a March 2007 editorial in the Recorder, a student newspaper at Central Connecticut State University. That editorial, in turn, was praised by Rush Limbaugh, thereby guaranteeing its eternal life in blog comments, online forums, and the musings of George Will.
The skeptics' basic argument is that the Prius' battery is irredeemably un-green, mostly because of its high nickel content and complex manufacturing process. As a result, "Dust to Dust" contends that a Prius will consume $3.25 worth of energy per mile over its cradle-to-grave lifetime. A Hummer H2, by contrast, will use $3.03 per mile and the Hummer H3 just $1.95.
Such a contrarian conclusion is manna to those who sneer at Prius owners as effete or snobbish. It's also unsubstantiated bunk. As numerous learned folks have pointed out, the 458-page "Dust to Dust" makes zero sense, and not just because it betrays its scientific shortcomings early on by referring to "gigajeulles" of energy. For starters, the report automatically penalizes the Prius by prorating all of Toyota's hybrid research-and-development costs across the relatively small number of Priuses on the road. New technologies obviously require massive upfront investment, so this puts the Prius deep in the energy hole right off the bat. (CNW Marketing defends this decision here.)
Second, "Dust to Dust" makes a gaggle of inexplicable assumptions, such as claiming that a Prius will last only 109,000 miles, well below the stated "industry straight average" of 178,739 miles—not to mention the whopping 379,000 miles ascribed to the Hummer H1. CNW says that Prius owners simply drive less than their peers, but it's impossible to tell where that data (as well as virtually everything else in the report) come from. In at least seven states, Toyota offers a 150,000-mile warranty on the Prius' hybrid components, including the battery—it's tough to fathom the company's actuaries agreeing to such a warranty if that 109,000-mile figure was correct. (More nutty assumptions are highlighted here.)
"Dust to Dust" also posits that the vast majority of a car's cradle-to-grave energy gets expended during production. That assertion runs contrary to virtually every other analysis of vehicular life cycles, including those conducted by MIT (PDF) and Argonne National Laboratory. The authors of "Dust to Dust" try to explain this discrepancy on pages 277 and 278 of the report, by invoking a truly weird analogy to coffee production. (How weird? CNW proposes factoring a consumer's post-coffee "bathroom run" into the commodity's life-cycle equation.) The Lantern is, to say the least, unconvinced, especially since CNW refuses to reveal its methodology—about as bright a red flag as you could ever hope to see. CNW's science is so feeble, in fact, that the Central Connecticut student who first cited it went on to publish a partial recantation, admitting that "Dust to Dust" is "dubious at best." (The writer says he's still no fan of gas-electric hybrids, claiming they've been embraced to the exclusion of more promising technologies.)
Another major part of the anti-Prius meme is that the car's battery uses 32 pounds of nickel, mined in Sudbury, Ontario. The skeptical e-mails often state that Sudbury is an environmental wasteland that resembles "a surrealistic scene from the depths of hell." That assertion might have been true about three decades ago, long before the Prius. Nickel mining is by no means a clean endeavor, but Sudbury's conditions have improved in recent years. On top of that, all cars contain nickel in their frames—the Hummer's frame, for example, has twice as much nickel as the Prius'. Also, nickel is 80 percent to 95 percent recoverable during the recycling process. (Future hybrids may use lithium batteries instead of NiMH, though the next-generation Prius does not.)
All that said, Toyota acknowledges that manufacturing a Prius is more energy intensive than making a nonhybrid car. Argonne's scientists estimate that producing a pound's worth of a hybrid car requires 38,650 British thermal units, 23 percent more than that required to build a pound of a traditional car. But the Prius' fuel savings can make up that difference rather quickly, at least compared with the average car, which gets a measly 22.9 miles per gallon. (The EPA estimates the Prius' fuel efficiency at 48 miles per gallon in the city, 45 on the highway—estimates that Prius owners typically claim are far too low.)
Sadly, the Lantern fully expects to continue receiving the same anti-Prius e-mails, citing the same flimsy evidence. Perhaps because of its association with the glitterati, the Prius attracts a large amount of venom, mostly from critics who specialize in knocking the stuffing out of straw men. These naysayers gleefully point out the hypocrisy of stars who drive Priuses while jetting around the globe in private planes or lambaste Toyota for milking the car for publicity.
None of these critiques should obscure that fact that the Prius represents a step in the right direction—innovation designed to increase fuel efficiency and reduce emissions and that the market (abetted by tax breaks) seems to be rewarding. Will the car slow climate change all by its lonesome? Of course not, but no one has ever suggested as much. Will it soon be eclipsed by newer technologies? Quite likely, and quite hopefully. But attacking the Prius for not being perfect—especially with lame scuttlebutt masquerading as science—strikes the Lantern as dangerously inane.
Is there an environmental quandary that's been keeping you up at night? Send it to ask.the.lantern@gmail.com, and check this space every Tuesday.
Brendan I. Koerner is a contributing editor at Wired and a columnist for Gizmodo. His first book, Now the Hell Will Start, is out now.

[jamie7000]

I work at toyota dealership in vandalia ohio checking with the service department it cost 3500.00 to have battery replaced that includes parts and labor.
We have been selling prius' since the 2000 we are yet to replace a battery on any prius. We have taken them in on trade with well over 100k NONE have had any problem with the battery

[efusco]

Originally Posted by jamie7000

I work at toyota dealership in vandalia ohio checking with the service department it cost 3500.00 to have battery replaced that includes parts and labor.
We have been selling prius' since the 2000 we are yet to replace a battery on any prius. We have taken them in on trade with well over 100k NONE have had any problem with the battery

Thanks Jamie,
You must not have heard that Toyota recently announced that the price for both the 1G and 2G Prius are coming down.
Toyota Announces Price Reduction On Prius Hybrid Batteries

Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc., announced here today at its Sustainable Mobility Seminar that pricing for first- and second-generation NiMH Prius hybrid vehicle (HV) replacement batteries have been reduced by more than 10 percent. The price of the 2000-2003 first-generation Prius battery has been reduced to $2,299, while the 2004-2008 second-generation Prius battery is reduced to $2,588. Prior to this most recent price reduction, both batteries were priced at $2985.

[Lihualee]

thanks a lot , bump up up up!!

[abishai100]

In response to mhellmer, manufacturing costs are indeed a vital sign of Prius value.


According to mhellmer’s table, the hybrid Prius falls below cars such as the Corvette, Aston Martin, and even the Civic hybrid. This is discouraging.


How will Toyota compete with emerging hybrid cars in the American automobile market (i.e., Ford, Chevy)?

One way to cut down manufacturing costs is to reduce selling price which can become competitive with smart advertising. Right now the Prius has several advantages over other hybrids and even other cars:

1. mileage (“miles-per-gallon” index)
2. Toyota’s engineering
3. a catchy name
4. leadership in the eco-vehicle industry


So right now, the Prius may be a status symbol only while fossil fuels are still abundant.

There’s nothing wrong with purchasing a status symbol if you are wealthy. However, consider that fossil fuels are diminishing in abundance, so manufacturing methods of Priuses (and other hybrids) will streamline and change, altering costs and prices. There’s no good reason not to debate this now.


Maybe Toyota could manufacture a diesel eco-friendly car?

[peterbright]

Had someone ask me at a gas station the other day if I thought I was smarter than he was. I said "absolutely...but it has nothing to do with what I drive".

[electric_ave]

i also wonder what the allure of the prius is. i had a 2001 insight that i drove into the ground, got over 100,000 miles on it. the car died when hurricane force winds dropped an oak tree on it.

i averaged about 60 mpg in that little sucker.

it was a simple car that was small, light, and had a manual transmission. it was what i thought hybrids were supposed to be.

the prius is a jumble of computers, high tech, buzzers, and screens. that's what i don't like about it (and that goes for both generations).

if toyota wanted to make a yaris or an iQ hybrid--i'd sign up for that. i just don't like how hybrids have shifted to such a overblown tech market, that's all. i'm more for a car that's transparent in how it operates.

[sdtundra]

Originally Posted by electric_ave

if toyota wanted to make a yaris or an iQ hybrid--i'd sign up for that.

If Toyota makes a 100% electric iQ That would get my motor rollin