Popular Science "mag" Hybrid negatives?

Jeri · 09-08-2004, 09:37 PM

Reading Sept 04 Popular Science, their sidebar lists the drawback to current hybrids. Of particular interest to me for validity, "Toyota found that the Prius got 26 percent worse mileage at 20F than at 75F..... " What if the weather is zero or lower? My math isn't the greatest but the following doesn't seem believeable " Even with gas savings and tax breaks, it could take eight (!) years or more to recoup.. hybrids higher sticker price" And last according to the side bar "advertised mileage is a pipe dream" Comments on the validity of the above statements would be appreciated.

john1701a · 09-08-2004, 09:58 PM

Here's the log entry I wrote on the absurd statement...

It's like they made up a reason and statistic to explain why MPG drops as the temperature drops. No matter. They didn't include the essentials anyway. Failing to mention that both traffic conditions and heater use change significantly when it's that cold is just plain wrong, because that's where a lot of the MPG loss comes from. The rest is from the fact that winter-formula fuel holds less energy and colder air is denser. So naturally efficient will be lower during the cold season. The battery-pack is actually quite responsive during the cold season, it's really just the capacity that gets reduced. You'll actually observe increased electrical activity then, not less, since keeping the battery-pack cool is much less of an issue. Too bad most reports about hybrid MPG don't include details on the actual performance of traditional vehicles. Cold weather is hard on them as well, in fact, more so. But if they want to make hybrids look bad or they just don't bother to be objective, that's the data to exclude.

hdrygas · 09-08-2004, 10:06 PM

How does this compare to conventional ICE cars? You must put the data into a proper context. GIGO

DaveinOlyWA · 09-08-2004, 11:18 PM

i believe some of that 26% drop is the unavoidable drop in power in the winter formula gas verses summer formula gas where you will have a 7-12% decrease in mpg FOR ALL VEHICLES. the difference in formula is necessary since summer gas freezes at 40º F. so i guess the article failed to mention that part. i noticed that they failed to mention the fact that normal automobiles take as much as 300% more time to warm up to normal operating temperature than the Prius does. (obviously, having an electric heater does have its advantages~!)

daniel · 09-09-2004, 08:32 AM

One of the many ways the Prius improves on efficiency is by shutting off the ICE when not needed. At zero F. I have my heater on full-blast all the time, and with the heater on full-blast, the ICE never shuts off. This narrows the efficiency difference.

Another way the Prius improves efficiency is by sending unneeded energy to the battery for later use. But with the ICE running all the time (see above) the battery tends to stay at such a high SOC that there is not enough headroom in the battery, and, again, some of the car's efficiency gain is lost.

All cars perform worse in winter. I am convinced that the Prius' advantage over other cars is less in winter than it is in summer. So instead of getting double the mpg, maybe the Prius only gets 50% or 75% more mpg than other cars in winter.

How many years will it take to pay for the difference, through gas savings? The question is meaningless since there's no basis for comparison. You can do the math for a Civic, where there are two identical cars, one with and one without IMA. But what do you compare the Prius to? A Camry? A Corolla? A Pinto? A Yugo? A Ferrari? Compare to a Yugo and you won't pay for the difference in a hundred years of gas; but compare to a Ferrari and you're a hundred grand (or is it two?) ahead right off the lot. --- WOW! I saved two hundred grand by buying my Prius!

The bottom line is that no new car can save money compared to a used one. You don't buy a new car to save money. On the other hand, if you can afford a new car, and the idea of paying the House of Saud for the privilege of adding your bit to the filth we all have to breathe in our air does not appeal to you, the Prius looks like a pretty nice choice. And it's got fun gadgets besides.

But, no, it does not do as well in winter, and its advantage compared to a regular car is probably less in winter.

Frank Hudon · 09-09-2004, 03:05 PM

what's the MPG of an Echo in 20F normal driving? compared to 75F, then put it as a percentage. That would at least provide some objectivity to the equation.

DaveinOlyWA · 09-09-2004, 06:11 PM

LOL

So daniel? what you gonna do with all that money you saved?

i suspect i will get worse mileage in the winter, now as far as how much we shall see. we generally get fairly mild winters here but i will let you know... but i do know that you would have to cut the mpg's of my Prius in half before you have to worry about any other car i have beating it.

daniel · 09-09-2004, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveinOlyWA
So daniel? what you gonna do with all that money you saved?

i suspect i will get worse mileage in the winter, ...

Hmmm. I suppose that with all the money I saved by not buying a Ferrari I could afford a Porsche and a cottage in the Swiss Alps.

Winter? What winter? You don't have winter. Does it ever go below 40 degrees where you are?

DaveinOlyWA · 09-09-2004, 11:05 PM

actually 40º F is about our average overnight low in jan. we do get occasional cold temps for about a week or two every year, but rain is the norm here. we did go 3 winters in a row a few years back with no snow at all.

Sun__Tzu · 09-11-2004, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by daniel
Winter? What winter? You don't have winter. Does it ever go below 40 degrees where you are?

Ah, weather-related smack talk. Priceless : )

09-08-2004, 09:37 PM	#1
Jeri Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 80 My Car: Model: Package: Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	Popular Science "mag" Hybrid negatives? Reading Sept 04 Popular Science, their sidebar lists the drawback to current hybrids. Of particular interest to me for validity, "Toyota found that the Prius got 26 percent worse mileage at 20F than at 75F..... " What if the weather is zero or lower? My math isn't the greatest but the following doesn't seem believeable " Even with gas savings and tax breaks, it could take eight (!) years or more to recoup.. hybrids higher sticker price" And last according to the side bar "advertised mileage is a pipe dream" Comments on the validity of the above statements would be appreciated.

09-08-2004, 09:58 PM	#2
john1701a Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,376 My Car: 2010 Prius Model: IV Package: Solar Roof Thanks: 9 Thanked 145 Times in 70 Posts Friends: 12	Here's the log entry I wrote on the absurd statement... It's like they made up a reason and statistic to explain why MPG drops as the temperature drops. No matter. They didn't include the essentials anyway. Failing to mention that both traffic conditions and heater use change significantly when it's that cold is just plain wrong, because that's where a lot of the MPG loss comes from. The rest is from the fact that winter-formula fuel holds less energy and colder air is denser. So naturally efficient will be lower during the cold season. The battery-pack is actually quite responsive during the cold season, it's really just the capacity that gets reduced. You'll actually observe increased electrical activity then, not less, since keeping the battery-pack cool is much less of an issue. Too bad most reports about hybrid MPG don't include details on the actual performance of traditional vehicles. Cold weather is hard on them as well, in fact, more so. But if they want to make hybrids look bad or they just don't bother to be objective, that's the data to exclude. __________________ JOHN http://john1701a.com 52.5 MPG average @ 10,808 miles

09-09-2004, 08:32 AM	#5
daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 11,278 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: Package: #6 Thanks: 59 Thanked 201 Times in 127 Posts Friends: 0	One of the many ways the Prius improves on efficiency is by shutting off the ICE when not needed. At zero F. I have my heater on full-blast all the time, and with the heater on full-blast, the ICE never shuts off. This narrows the efficiency difference. Another way the Prius improves efficiency is by sending unneeded energy to the battery for later use. But with the ICE running all the time (see above) the battery tends to stay at such a high SOC that there is not enough headroom in the battery, and, again, some of the car's efficiency gain is lost. All cars perform worse in winter. I am convinced that the Prius' advantage over other cars is less in winter than it is in summer. So instead of getting double the mpg, maybe the Prius only gets 50% or 75% more mpg than other cars in winter. How many years will it take to pay for the difference, through gas savings? The question is meaningless since there's no basis for comparison. You can do the math for a Civic, where there are two identical cars, one with and one without IMA. But what do you compare the Prius to? A Camry? A Corolla? A Pinto? A Yugo? A Ferrari? Compare to a Yugo and you won't pay for the difference in a hundred years of gas; but compare to a Ferrari and you're a hundred grand (or is it two?) ahead right off the lot. --- WOW! I saved two hundred grand by buying my Prius! The bottom line is that no new car can save money compared to a used one. You don't buy a new car to save money. On the other hand, if you can afford a new car, and the idea of paying the House of Saud for the privilege of adding your bit to the filth we all have to breathe in our air does not appeal to you, the Prius looks like a pretty nice choice. And it's got fun gadgets besides. But, no, it does not do as well in winter, and its advantage compared to a regular car is probably less in winter. __________________ Daniel Primary car: 100% Electric 2003 Porsche 911 Carrera. Estimated range at 55 mph: 81 miles total or 64 miles to 80% discharge. Top speed 70 mph. Secondary car: Zap Xebra SD, also 100% electric. 1.9 cents per mile. Range: 40 miles total, or 32 miles to 80% discharge. Top speed 35 mph. Faster downhill. Both EVs use electrons generated from water power. Gas guzzler for when I have to travel farther than 60 miles: 2004 Prius. "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." -- Emma Goldman "Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war." -- Otto von Bismarck

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09-08-2004, 10:06 PM	#3
hdrygas Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Olympia Wa Posts: 3,650 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: Package: #9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts Friends: 0	How does this compare to conventional ICE cars? You must put the data into a proper context. GIGO

09-08-2004, 11:18 PM	#4
DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: South Puget Sound, WA Posts: 12,378 My Car: 2010 Prius Model: IV Package: Solar Roof Thanks: 24 Thanked 121 Times in 103 Posts Friends: 10	i believe some of that 26% drop is the unavoidable drop in power in the winter formula gas verses summer formula gas where you will have a 7-12% decrease in mpg FOR ALL VEHICLES. the difference in formula is necessary since summer gas freezes at 40º F. so i guess the article failed to mention that part. i noticed that they failed to mention the fact that normal automobiles take as much as 300% more time to warm up to normal operating temperature than the Prius does. (obviously, having an electric heater does have its advantages~!)

09-09-2004, 03:05 PM	#6
Frank Hudon Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 4,144 My Car: Model: Package: Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	what's the MPG of an Echo in 20F normal driving? compared to 75F, then put it as a percentage. That would at least provide some objectivity to the equation.

09-09-2004, 06:11 PM	#7
DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: South Puget Sound, WA Posts: 12,378 My Car: 2010 Prius Model: IV Package: Solar Roof Thanks: 24 Thanked 121 Times in 103 Posts Friends: 10	LOL So daniel? what you gonna do with all that money you saved? i suspect i will get worse mileage in the winter, now as far as how much we shall see. we generally get fairly mild winters here but i will let you know... but i do know that you would have to cut the mpg's of my Prius in half before you have to worry about any other car i have beating it.

09-09-2004, 11:05 PM	#9
DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: South Puget Sound, WA Posts: 12,378 My Car: 2010 Prius Model: IV Package: Solar Roof Thanks: 24 Thanked 121 Times in 103 Posts Friends: 10	actually 40º F is about our average overnight low in jan. we do get occasional cold temps for about a week or two every year, but rain is the norm here. we did go 3 winters in a row a few years back with no snow at all.