When Will I Be Able To Be Nearly Gasoline-Free?

jyl · 10-30-2007, 11:36 PM

My wife drives the kids to/from school, 10 miles roundtrip, 2X per day. Also various local errands. She does appx 45 miles/day on the Prius and consumes about 5 gallons of gasoline per week, more in winter.

I have a 8 mile commute, roundtrip. Sometimes I ride my bicycle, lately I've been riding a scooter and consume appx 1 gallon of gasoline a week (plus a bit of two-stroke oil). I do drive my cars sometimes too.

So, we don't use a lot of gasoline. But I'd like to use even less. Someday I would like my wife to have a plug-in Prius, and I'd like an electric scooter. I'd like enough solar panels on the roof to give us zero net grid electricity usage, including charging the Prius and scooter. We could get our gasoline usage down to just a gallon or so per week. At that point, I wouldn't personally care if gasoline were $6/gal, or $10/gal.

Question - how long before this becomes economically feasible? The plug-in Prius with 30-40 miles electric range, do you think that is 2 or 3 years away? How about the home solar panel system, at a price less than a base Prius? (The electric scooter part is easy.)

I figure some people on this board know about both Priuses and home solar systems . . .

fwellers · 10-31-2007, 06:16 AM

Quote:

At that point, I wouldn't personally care if gasoline were $6/gal, or $10/gal.
[/b]

Of course the price of the gallon will always affect you, even though you may not use a drop of gas.

dbermanmd · 10-31-2007, 07:32 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(John L. @ Oct 30 2007, 11:36 PM) [snapback]532736[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

My wife drives the kids to/from school, 10 miles roundtrip, 2X per day. Also various local errands. She does appx 45 miles/day on the Prius and consumes about 5 gallons of gasoline per week, more in winter.

I have a 8 mile commute, roundtrip. Sometimes I ride my bicycle, lately I've been riding a scooter and consume appx 1 gallon of gasoline a week (plus a bit of two-stroke oil). I do drive my cars sometimes too.

So, we don't use a lot of gasoline. But I'd like to use even less. Someday I would like my wife to have a plug-in Prius, and I'd like an electric scooter. I'd like enough solar panels on the roof to give us zero net grid electricity usage, including charging the Prius and scooter. We could get our gasoline usage down to just a gallon or so per week. At that point, I wouldn't personally care if gasoline were $6/gal, or $10/gal.

Question - how long before this becomes economically feasible? The plug-in Prius with 30-40 miles electric range, do you think that is 2 or 3 years away? How about the home solar panel system, at a price less than a base Prius? (The electric scooter part is easy.)

I figure some people on this board know about both Priuses and home solar systems . . .
[/b]

What is the fuel source for the electricity you consume?

**efusco** · 10-31-2007, 08:52 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Oct 31 2007, 06:32 AM) [snapback]532832[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

What is the fuel source for the electricity you consume? [/b]

Whatever it is I bet it doesn't come from terrorist supporting nations in the Middle East.

tballx · 10-31-2007, 10:23 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Oct 31 2007, 05:52 AM) [snapback]532849[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

Whatever it is I bet it doesn't come from terrorist supporting nations in the Middle East.
[/b]

Nor would it output the same amount of pollutants as burning a gallon of gas. I just don't get it. What is the attachment to the internal combustion engine?

napatree · 10-31-2007, 11:33 AM

When you peel away the layers of the onion of the problem of our dependency on petroleum and the internal combustion engine, you begin to realize that large scale production of electricity can be green, efficient and cheap. The problem is, and remains, the storage and distribution of electricity.

Gasoline and its relatives have a very high energy density. That is, they can produce alot of Watts (work) relative to their weight and physical volume. It can be stored without loss. Thus the internal combustion engine, as inefficient as it is relative to it's fuel's energy density and as costly it is to our environment, both socially and politically, is king- because of it's power source. Gasoline is a highly efficient means of storing potential energy.

Until we have a means of storing electricity on the scale of billions of Amp-Hours, at kilovoltage nominal, and at hundred thousand amp current discharge capability, we are subservient to the needs of the existing power distribution grid. This concept broadly applies to cars and homes, as well as industry.

At a micro level, like cars for example, significant advances have been made in battery technology. Again, this development is framed against the benchmark of energy density. We all know, we could power a typical car for a long, long time, if we could just stick 40 or so sealed lead acid batteries of 50AH capacity in it. Trouble is, that's about 2000 lbs of weight right there.

In electrical storage, the growth path has gone from Lead/Acid, to NiCad, to NiMH, and LiIon. Each sucessive technology represents a doubling over the previous generation in potential energy density. Each advance has come with a corresponding drop in current output potential.

Unfortunately, LiIon comes with its own problems, too. While having a high energy density due to its capacity, it has a relatively low discharge capacity in the form of current and thus a slower recharge rate as well. The higher nominal voltage of the cells does not compensate for this loss in output potential. Finally, its chemistry is unstable at both ends of its voltage curve.

Another technology- LiPoly (Lithium Polymer) has tremendous promise, as it has both an extremely high energy density and a very high discharge rate. It is far superior to LiIon in an application like a car, but it comes at a higher price, and is dangerously unstable outside of its voltage range. (it catches fire and burns- and the fire is very difficult to put out- like a magnesium fire for example.) I've worked with them extensively, but I can tell you, they are too dangerous at the current level of development to put in mass produced cars.

Bottom line, if we had better batteries, we wouldn't need gas. We could undertake massive projects like dams to store energy (in the form of water-potential energy) at the Gigavoltage scale, and replace the hydrocarbon infrastructure with a cellular electricity storage one. Trouble is, War is just about the best racket going, and very profitable. You do the math.

vuapplepudding · 10-31-2007, 11:37 AM

John,

I too would like a plug in.

I was originally going to put a deposit down on an 2009 PRIUS, but the battery thing and the lack of a plug in model makes me re-think.

Heck for $5,000 - $10,000 more added to my PRIUS, I can make mine a plug in.

So in 2 years, if the automakers don't make a production line vehicle, I will just bit the bullet and make my own. Why buy JUST a new car when you can make the one you have BETTER!

Some articles are saying GM has a target date for the VOLT by 2009, but I've never seen the price tag. If it is a $50,000 car, duh...the plug in conversion is a no brainer for me.

Basically, I will have $25,000 for the first automaker to get me into a car with plug in capability or Hymotion is going to get a check for $10,000 for a battery pack conversion.

dbermanmd · 10-31-2007, 11:40 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Oct 31 2007, 08:52 AM) [snapback]532849[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

Whatever it is I bet it doesn't come from terrorist supporting nations in the Middle East.
[/b]

I agree with you 100% - it is a shame that we have given them the power to do what they have done and what they continue to do.

sub3marathonman · 10-31-2007, 10:40 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(John L. @ Oct 30 2007, 11:36 PM) [snapback]532736[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

So, we don't use a lot of gasoline. But I'd like to use even less. Someday I would like my wife to have a plug-in Prius, and I'd like an electric scooter. I'd like enough solar panels on the roof to give us zero net grid electricity usage, including charging the Prius and scooter. We could get our gasoline usage down to just a gallon or so per week. At that point, I wouldn't personally care if gasoline were $6/gal, or $10/gal.

Question - how long before this becomes economically feasible?

I figure some people on this board know about both Priuses and home solar systems . . .
[/b]

I have been wondering exactly the same thing. And of course I think of darelldd. And that he must have spent a fortune to get his gasoline independence. But I don't really think that is the case.

He can tell the exact details if he chooses, but he made a relatively large investment in the RAV4EV, which was reduced in price by incentives. Now that he has owned it for 46,000 miles it is worth much more than he paid for it, so he has potentially made money there. And I'll bet that potential profit would just about install the solar panels that he's using to power the RAV4EV. There is also the possibility to finance the solar panel installation and have much of the charges offset by the reduction in electric costs.

So it seems that under the correct circumstances the conversion to "gasolinelessness" really wouldn't be unreasonable.

Codyroo · 10-31-2007, 11:18 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(John L. @ Oct 30 2007, 08:36 PM) [snapback]532736[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

How about the home solar panel system, at a price less than a base Prius? (The electric scooter part is easy.)

I figure some people on this board know about both Priuses and home solar systems . . .
[/b]

Hi John,

We just had a 3.8 kilowatt ac system installed on our house, finally was able to turn it on in August. Total cost was approx $35k and with CA incentives and fed tax credit, will bring the net cost down to approx. $22k. There went my Barcelona Red 2007 Prius that I wanted to buy when I started my new job.....stuck with the 89 Integra for another 3 years.

The system we have may not generate enough electricity to get us to net zero electrical usage. The solar companies aren't trying to pitch that strategy. Instead, they pitch the strategy to try to lower your overall net electric bill to $0. They can do this by getting you on the Time of Use plan. From Noon - 6 pm, you pay/sell electricity for about 3x as much as the remainder of the day. Since you generate the most electricity at that time (and hopefully aren't using too much) you can cut your net usage by 50% or more, but still eliminate the electric portion of your bill. From August until now, we have actually generated more electricity than we used (cool summer in the Bay Area helped). But with the shorter days, we are using more than we are generating, so I don't know if by next August we can catch up to a total of net zero.

The reason for not buying a system to generate all our electric needs is that it would need to be 3x more expensive to cover the short days of the winter months. Maybe 50% more would get us to net zero, we'll see. In Oregon (Portland) you may have more issues, because if it is cloudy/raining, you aren't generating much electricity. You also will benefit if you have a good Southern exposure, free of shade (trees). Hope you don't have electric ceiling heat like a bunch of houses in Eugene have.....ugh, say hello Mr. Electric Bill.

I do wonder how much energy a Engine Block Heater requires or powering an electric scooter. I know our system cannot generate enough electricity to power our biggest electricity users (AC uses the most, Oven second, Clothes dryer third). If any of these are being used and the heating element is active, then the meter spins forward rather than backward. Since an Engine Block Heater is a heating element, I suspect it would use a lot of electricity too.

10-30-2007, 11:36 PM	#1
jyl Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Portland Posts: 78 My Car: 2007 Prius Model: Package: #5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post Friends: 0	My wife drives the kids to/from school, 10 miles roundtrip, 2X per day. Also various local errands. She does appx 45 miles/day on the Prius and consumes about 5 gallons of gasoline per week, more in winter. I have a 8 mile commute, roundtrip. Sometimes I ride my bicycle, lately I've been riding a scooter and consume appx 1 gallon of gasoline a week (plus a bit of two-stroke oil). I do drive my cars sometimes too. So, we don't use a lot of gasoline. But I'd like to use even less. Someday I would like my wife to have a plug-in Prius, and I'd like an electric scooter. I'd like enough solar panels on the roof to give us zero net grid electricity usage, including charging the Prius and scooter. We could get our gasoline usage down to just a gallon or so per week. At that point, I wouldn't personally care if gasoline were $6/gal, or $10/gal. Question - how long before this becomes economically feasible? The plug-in Prius with 30-40 miles electric range, do you think that is 2 or 3 years away? How about the home solar panel system, at a price less than a base Prius? (The electric scooter part is easy.) I figure some people on this board know about both Priuses and home solar systems . . .

10-31-2007, 11:33 AM	#6
napatree Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2 My Car: Model: Package: Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	When you peel away the layers of the onion of the problem of our dependency on petroleum and the internal combustion engine, you begin to realize that large scale production of electricity can be green, efficient and cheap. The problem is, and remains, the storage and distribution of electricity. Gasoline and its relatives have a very high energy density. That is, they can produce alot of Watts (work) relative to their weight and physical volume. It can be stored without loss. Thus the internal combustion engine, as inefficient as it is relative to it's fuel's energy density and as costly it is to our environment, both socially and politically, is king- because of it's power source. Gasoline is a highly efficient means of storing potential energy. Until we have a means of storing electricity on the scale of billions of Amp-Hours, at kilovoltage nominal, and at hundred thousand amp current discharge capability, we are subservient to the needs of the existing power distribution grid. This concept broadly applies to cars and homes, as well as industry. At a micro level, like cars for example, significant advances have been made in battery technology. Again, this development is framed against the benchmark of energy density. We all know, we could power a typical car for a long, long time, if we could just stick 40 or so sealed lead acid batteries of 50AH capacity in it. Trouble is, that's about 2000 lbs of weight right there. In electrical storage, the growth path has gone from Lead/Acid, to NiCad, to NiMH, and LiIon. Each sucessive technology represents a doubling over the previous generation in potential energy density. Each advance has come with a corresponding drop in current output potential. Unfortunately, LiIon comes with its own problems, too. While having a high energy density due to its capacity, it has a relatively low discharge capacity in the form of current and thus a slower recharge rate as well. The higher nominal voltage of the cells does not compensate for this loss in output potential. Finally, its chemistry is unstable at both ends of its voltage curve. Another technology- LiPoly (Lithium Polymer) has tremendous promise, as it has both an extremely high energy density and a very high discharge rate. It is far superior to LiIon in an application like a car, but it comes at a higher price, and is dangerously unstable outside of its voltage range. (it catches fire and burns- and the fire is very difficult to put out- like a magnesium fire for example.) I've worked with them extensively, but I can tell you, they are too dangerous at the current level of development to put in mass produced cars. Bottom line, if we had better batteries, we wouldn't need gas. We could undertake massive projects like dams to store energy (in the form of water-potential energy) at the Gigavoltage scale, and replace the hydrocarbon infrastructure with a cellular electricity storage one. Trouble is, War is just about the best racket going, and very profitable. You do the math.

10-31-2007, 11:37 AM	#7
vuapplepudding Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Nebraska Posts: 75 My Car: 2006 Prius Model: Package: #4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	John, I too would like a plug in. I was originally going to put a deposit down on an 2009 PRIUS, but the battery thing and the lack of a plug in model makes me re-think. Heck for $5,000 - $10,000 more added to my PRIUS, I can make mine a plug in. So in 2 years, if the automakers don't make a production line vehicle, I will just bit the bullet and make my own. Why buy JUST a new car when you can make the one you have BETTER! Some articles are saying GM has a target date for the VOLT by 2009, but I've never seen the price tag. If it is a $50,000 car, duh...the plug in conversion is a no brainer for me. Basically, I will have $25,000 for the first automaker to get me into a car with plug in capability or Hymotion is going to get a check for $10,000 for a battery pack conversion.