how much will it cost to fill up an alternative fuel car? ?

[ctbering]

My brain is on overload trying to figure out the benefits of alternant energy to fuel the vehicles of the future. I always believed that Toyota harnessing the electrical energy through the gas engine and braking system as a key to reducing our dependence on foreign oil.
I love the fact auto companies are finally forced to address the oil crisis with alternative fueled cars.
My question; will be paying more for hydrogen fill-ups versus gas fill-ups? How much will it cost to recharge a plug-in vehicle versus filling up with gas?
Do we believe alternative energies will be cheaper? Those nice folks at the electrical company keep jacking our rates higher each year, just as the gas companies having been doing for years. If the energy companies could figure out how to harness the Sun's energy and make us pay for it, we would all be in big trouble.
Isn't the beauty of the Prius is that it uses two technologies, gas and electric, to make it run?

[darelldd]

Originally Posted by ctbering

I always believed that Toyota harnessing the electrical energy through the gas engine and braking system as a key to reducing our dependence on foreign oil.

The HSD is key to saving a bit of gas. The Prius is still a gasoline car. And that isn't gonna solve this.

My question; will be paying more for hydrogen fill-ups versus gas fill-ups?

Yes it wil cost more to fill up with H2 - if we're collectively stupid enough to continue down the Hydrogen path. We won't. No in the short term at least. We can't. If the concept of H2 was such a good idea, we'd all be driving around in Natural Gas cars today at a magnitude cheaper for the cars, and plentiful "clean" energy all around us. Most H2 is going to be stripped from our fossil fuels at great loss of efficiency in the chain.

How much will it cost to recharge a plug-in vehicle versus filling up with gas?

Today it is pproximately 1/5 the cost to plug in vs gas up. And more importantly, we can control those costs as electricity is produced domestically from whatever we decide to make it from. We no longer have control over our oil/gasoline prices or supply. Well, we haven't for a while, but gosh, not it seems IMPORTANT.

Do we believe alternative energies will be cheaper?

I don't know if "we" do, but I sure do. Long-range, alternatives can and should be cheaper and far better for us in every way. I don't consider H2 as a viable alternative - of course it is not a source of any energy. Just like electricity, we have to make it with some other source.

Those nice folks at the electrical company keep jacking our rates higher each year, just as the gas companies having been doing for years.

But again, we have at least some control over our domestic energy. We have NO control over oil and gas. If we collectively wanted to solve this thing, we could do it - domestically. Those "jacked electricity rates" are still WAY cheaper and cleaner to use in fueling our vehicles.

If the energy companies could figure out how to harness the Sun's energy and make us pay for it, we would all be in big trouble.

They already have. They can and they do. And it is our best hope. We're only in trouble if we keep using oil, coal, etc. We NEED to move to solar, wind, etc. I did, and have never looked back.

Isn't the beauty of the Prius is that it uses two technologies, gas and electric, to make it run?

No. The Prius uses gasoline to run. In stock form, there is no way to run it from any other energy source. Once it is a plug-in, then we're on the right track with two energy sources. Still better to completely get rid of the gasoline portion and run it completely on the cleanest, most available, most flexible, renewable energy carrier we have - electricity.

Here are a couple of videos for you to see what "fueling with an alternative energy" can mean. Some seem a bit repetative, because after doing one quickly, I was asked for something a bit "more."

YouTube

YouTube

YouTube

YouTube

YouTube

YouTube

So my answer to the question in your subject line: Zero.

[miscrms]

Here's a quick wag. A decent EV should use about 200Wh/mile. Lets say charging efficiency is 80%, so thats 250 ACWh/mi. If you drive 15,000 miles per year, thats 3750kWh. The US average electricity rate is 9c/kWh, so your yearly EV fuel bill would be $337.50 if you charged during the day. At night you should be paying much less, say 3c/kWh or $112.50. Here in AZ, 3750kWh would put out 4.1 tons of CO2. In CA I believe power can be as expensive as 23c/mi peak, which would be $862.50

By comparison, a Prius at 46mpg would cost $1330.43 at the current $4.08/gallon. CO2 emissions are 4.0 tons. An average 22mpg car would cost $2781, with CO2 emissions of 8.2 tons.

If money is all you are worried about, the EV is much cheaper. If CO2 is primary concern, you might be slightly better off driving a Prius unless you buy or produce green energy. In most places green power can be purchased for less than 3c/kWh surcharge. That would add up to $112.50 to be CO2 free.

Lastly, if you want to be CO2 free, and independent of potential rises in energy costs you could install your own solar array. I'll use AZ numbers as those are what I'm familiar with. To cover the 3750kWh you would need annually, you'd need to install a 2.35kW DC rated system. That system would run about $14,000 but you'd get $9,000 of that back from the local utitlity and state and federal tax credits. So for $5,000 you could drive for 20 to 25 years CO2 free. Thats a fuel cost of ~$200-$250 per year guaranteed for 20-25 years. The downside is the upfront cost. Even if you put the $5k upfront cost into a 30 year mortgage you'd probably be looking at no more than $500 per year.

Solar is a little bit pricey when you are trying to offset relatively cheap electricity, but when you are offsetting gasoline its a bargain! The fact that we could all be driving for $200/yr polution free gives you a little bit of an idea why the EV people get so animated about the current situation

Rob

[Godiva]

My plans for the future are to eventually buy an EV and put MORE photovoltaic panels on the roof. So far, no EV meets my needs. GMs EV1 would have, but they wouldn't sell them, only lease. I didn't even know Toyota made an EV Rav4. Probably because it was after I bought my car in 1996 and wasn't in the market for another car until 2005. I also would not have paid much attention to anything like an SUV, not even a small one. But, had I known they had an EV, I probably would have traded in or sold my Saturn to buy one and put PV on my roof even sooner than I did. As is.....I'm ready when the right car comes along.

[Sheepdog]

sounds great but it isnt just the $14000 for the solar cells. Its also the conversion of my Prius. That could be another $15000 or so. We all want to drive cheaper and with zero CO2 and pollution but can we afford to set up? Not all of us can.

I can afford to put gas in my two Prii right now and drive sensibly. Thats all I can do the way things are right now.

[gus_levox]

Depends on what alternative fuel you are referring to . . .

I am a big believer in natural gas. The pipelines are already in place, stations (not many, I must agree) are set up, and there's plenty of it, no shortage whatsoever. This fuel burns extremely clean, with almost no emissions.

I'm going to try the CNG route, converting my car over. i live in Utah, where it's only 64 cents a GALLON - that's 6 times cheaper than gas right now, and much more if you're on diesel. A local place ( CNGOutfitters.com) sells the converters for around $1500, so you could pull even in like 6 months (depending on your job). It's a bit much up front, but you could spend much more later, especially the way gas prices are going . .. AND you can even install them on hybrids . . .wink .. . .wink

[darelldd]

Originally Posted by Sheepdog

Its also the conversion of my Prius.

You have to set your sights higher than that! Converted Prius? Why still push around all the ICE pieces? The goal here - on that is absolutley attainable - is full battery EVs at price parity with, say, the Prius. I paid $42,000 for my Rav (before incentives) and while I didn't set out to save money (not even a little bit!) it sure turned out that way. Five years ago I spent $45,000 (after incentives) and got a brand new car (still the daily driver today) and fuel for that car - and any EV that follows) for the rest of my life.

New car and fuel forever. $45,000.

Hello?

[Sheepdog]

hello?

I have a mortgage and two new cars now. Maybe in 5 years or so I can consider your idea.

[richard schumacher]

Originally Posted by darelldd

New car and fuel forever. $45,000.

Wait, how does that work? Short version, please. You'll never have to pay to replace the batteries?

[ctbering]

Originally Posted by darelldd

You have to set your sights higher than that! Converted Prius? Why still push around all the ICE pieces? The goal here - on that is absolutley attainable - is full battery EVs at price parity with, say, the Prius. I paid $42,000 for my Rav (before incentives) and while I didn't set out to save money (not even a little bit!) it sure turned out that way. Five years ago I spent $45,000 (after incentives) and got a brand new car (still the daily driver today) and fuel for that car - and any EV that follows) for the rest of my life.

New car and fuel forever. $45,000.

Hello?

Nice movie, very impressive. I didn't realize what is or could be availablle for alternative cars. I have questions about your RAV; like the electric engine, how powerful is it? The charging looks pretty easy. The total cost of the garage solar panels, charger and car? Any electric motor maintenance since it does not require oil?
At his point the government is not looking to you for tax revenue because your progressive and ET vehicles are very limited. If ET vehicles become the norm all of the State and federal taxes would raise the price of fueling significantly, I believe.