Just filled up both my cars - wholesale gas prices going thru roof down south

[zenMachine]

Alabama Gov. Bob Riley and Georgia Gov. Sonny Perdue declared Friday a state of emergency for their respective states. That means price gouging laws are now in effect.


Alabama gas stations that hike prices unfairly will face fines of up to $1,000 per violation. If a business shows it has "willfully and continuously" violated the law, the station may be barred from doing business in Alabama.
Georgia violators will get hit with penalties between $2,000 and $25,000 per violation.


Ledger-Enquirer.com | 09/14/2008 | Gas stations risk hefty fine if caught spiking prices

[andyprius]

To Rick: As for price gouging, If , as a Gas station owner I was selling gasoline at $3.25 a gallon, and a storm came thru and I knew that supplies were going to be disrupted. I would charge the same price as yesterday before the storm happened. That's called morality. Now should the oil companies have to charge a higher price because of the storm then thier new price dictates my raised price. All your other points were well taken, but irrelevant to the subject at hand. Gasoline is a product we all need, and I do not begrudge the oil companies profit and am Thankful for thier existence. We are all equally ENTITLED to the Earths resources. Some gasoline station owners are gouging. In some states it is against the law, and citizens can report it and the fine is HEFTY.

[viking31]

Originally Posted by zenMachine

Alabama Gov. Bob Riley and Georgia Gov. Sonny Perdue declared Friday a state of emergency for their respective states. That means price gouging laws are now in effect.


Alabama gas stations that hike prices unfairly will face fines of up to $1,000 per violation. If a business shows it has "willfully and continuously" violated the law, the station may be barred from doing business in Alabama.
Georgia violators will get hit with penalties between $2,000 and $25,000 per violation.


Ledger-Enquirer.com | 09/14/2008 | Gas stations risk hefty fine if caught spiking prices

Hmm, why is it only during a "state of emergency" that these laws are in effect? Why should I as the consumer be allowed to be "gouged" if their is no "state of emergency"? Isn't the current state of housing in "a state of emergency"? Geez, if I was king for the day and these so called anti "gouging" laws you tout are so effective, I would permanently put into effect all anti "gouging" laws and schemes. Then we would all have everything we want and need at "fair" prices forever. No inflation ever. Utopia... Everyone would be rich! As stated before, another feel good, peasant mentality, "I'm using my supreme power as the governer of the state to help out the common folk" law...

As for the possible barring of doing business in the state of GA and hefty fines, nice incentive to do business in GA...

Another poster noted that some areas of GA are completely out of gas. This is due to two factors: consumer hoarding and perhaps mostly the shortage of the refined gas itself (hint, supply and demand point to follow...). Of course, for the gas station owner he will have to close his station. If he remains open he will face very few customers to purchase sodas and beer (which is where he makes most of his money) because his pumps are dry. And his building rent, insurance, and many other costs will continue to pile up no matter. He could have fared better if allowed to raise his prices during the temporary crisis allowing EVERYONE to purchase fuel, especially those who need it the most.



Rick
#4 2006

[viking31]

Originally Posted by andyprius

We are all equally ENTITLED to the Earths resources.

I find it absolutely absurd that you feel you (assuming you are of "able" body and mind) are ENTITLED to these products that someone else has produced. Or is it just refined petroleum and hotel rooms that you are entitled to have???

And herein lies the very crux/foundation of our argument. Everything you touch, see (sans the universe beyond the Earth), and eat is a product of the Earth. Man throughout the ages has toiled and brilliantly invented ways to extract and refine these resources in an economical way for consumption by the masses. From fuel, to houses, to autos, to TV's, to.... As an incentive (this is real important), one (as in individuals or corporations/stockholders) is/are rewarded through varying monetary gains depending on the perceived value (as determined by the consumer) of such a product.

The concept of entitlement is what many economists refer as a "poison" to the essential workings of a free market economy. Just as many poisons, anti "gouging" laws and entitlements can make you a little sick in small doses (as with the current only implemented in a "state of emergency" anti "gouging" laws) to a deadly dose if implemented on a grand permanent scale as with modern Venezuela and Zimbabwe (we've seen how Russia has been crippled by such policies over the past decades). These leaders were elected with landslide wins because they promised everything will be available at cheap prices forever. Of course, the party only lasts for a few years and then near and total collapse of the economy results. Businesses close and are nationalized. And we all know the rest of the story from here.

No, no one is going to die and collapse of our economy will not result from these small scale "emergency" anti "gouging" laws which mostly and arbitrarily target retail gas stations. But I do see these laws as the proverbial slippery slope. Soon, everyone and anyone who is in business may be target for "gouging". And they do create documented problems such as shortages we are currently seeing in many states.

Rick
#4 2006

[NeoPrius]

Not to derail the ongoing political conversation, but here's a neat website that is relevant to the original posting:

USA National Gas Temperature Map

Canada National Gas Temperature Map

[qbee42]

Originally Posted by viking31

Hmm, why is it only during a "state of emergency" that these laws are in effect? Why should I as the consumer be allowed to be "gouged" if their is no "state of emergency"?...<snip>

This is because the normal laws of supply and demand are disrupted by the emergency. Our free market system assumes that fair prices will happen automatically under normal conditions. Anti-monopoly and anti-trust laws exist to prevent abuse during normal market conditions. The question of whether we have a free market in this country is another issue.

Tom

[viking31]

Originally Posted by qbee42

This is because the normal laws of supply and demand are disrupted by the emergency.

I respectfully disagree. Unfettered supply and demand actually works best under stress. Any shortage, whether actual or perceived, is best handled by private enterprise, surely not the government. Laws which inhibit supply and demand encourage the public to not plan for emergencies and other scenarios which inhibit normal supply chains. But if all the hotel operators or all the fuel station operators met secretly beforehand in some "star room" to set prices, then, yes we would have a problem. But when they all act individually (as within one company or even down to one independent), well, that's a free market. Prosecution of Mr. Patel (thank you Sen. Biden) of the Quick Stop Gas and Go for charging a buck a gallon above yesterday's price makes for good headlines for both the governor and the AG. Never mind the guy probably came to the US with a $100 bucks to his name and works 18 hour days to successfully start a thriving mini mart in small town USA. He's an easy target with limited legal resources to fight such ridiculous anti "gouging" laws.

It's the hurricane or the natural disaster that's the one that needs to be prosecuted and fined, not the end retailer. As I constantly preach, if you don't like it, then start your own business, be the "moral hero" of the city, and charge below or at cost. We'll see how long your business model will last.

Anti-monopoly and anti-trust laws exist to prevent abuse during normal market conditions.

Agreed. But even those laws can be worded to inhibit the growth and innovation necessary to bring products, both in quality and quantity, to the hands of the consumer.

The question of whether we have a free market in this country is another issue.

One could spend a lifetime studying this issue and not even scratch the surface. That's why we politicians to help us "ignorant" masses through the day;-).

Rick
#4 2006



Tom[/quote]

[zenMachine]

In times of emergency, public welfare and public safety override selfish commercial interests. That is why "normal" market forces need to be temporarily suspended in order to prevent further chaos.

It is analogous to imposing a curfew to discourage looting.

[Celtic Blue]

Have to agree with viking31 that the screams of "gouging" are counterproductive. In an emergency we want incentive for folks to bring supplies into the region that needs it, not disincentives. If there is no money to be made in carrying extra inventory for sale in times like these, then folks won't do it. That leads to shortage when supplies are most needed (basic economics.)

Contrary to zen's assertion, the suspension of normal market forces (gouging laws) can create greater emergency and chaos, not lessen it. I would have loved to have someone gouge me for gasoline when we were trying to evacuate from Houston during Rita, but nobody was selling gas anymore--several days before the storm. So we and many of our neighbors ended up riding it out in a declared surge evacuation zone (per Mayor Dufus.)

It is not analogous to imposing a curfew to discourage looting, as providing a legitimate product/service is not analogous to theft (looting).

A closer analogy is public official's response to Katrina's shelter problems. The "solution" was not to have any storm shelters in the evacuation zone until AFTER storms. This "brilliant" solution meant that those of us who couldn't get out during Rita because of inept transportation emergency planning by Texas (gridlock) had little choice other than riding it out at home. If an area takes a major hit with this sort of no shelter plan then there will be many more dead than if there had been shelters, but the public officials can claim it was not their fault...because the deaths were at home. Just what I want, a govt. looking to absolve itself rather than find real solutions.

[hill]

Originally Posted by viking31
Hmm, why is it only during a "state of emergency" that these laws are in effect? Why should I as the consumer be allowed to be "gouged" if their is no "state of emergency"?...<snip>

Originally Posted by qbee42

This is because the normal laws of supply and demand are disrupted by the emergency. Our free market system assumes that fair prices will happen automatically under normal conditions. Anti-monopoly and anti-trust laws exist to prevent abuse during normal market conditions. The question of whether we have a free market in this country is another issue.

Tom

Is that what it's all about? The magic "emergency" word? Why is it that it's soooo much easier to believe in 'conspiracy' or 'gouging' than simple supply & demand rules. (sure, there are gougers, but that doesn't look at the real issue ... which is the SUPPLY that ENABLES the possibility of gouging)

How hypocritical society is, to say "WE" are in an emergency, because of an earthquake, tidal wave, hurricane or whatever. The pathetic unrealized thing is, that we are ALL in an emergency. For example: a 75 foot tidal wave is 8 hours away, but you don't know about it. Doesn't matter. There's still an emergency.

It's called, the inextricably linked fossle fuel depletion & the Fed's legally printing paper money out of thin air, putting the trillions of debt onto the next generation, with no cheep energy to pay for it. This is the power of a compounding population ever using more and more fuel, food, resources etc ... all the while the fuel resources (and everything they create) are reaching a point where their ability to be extracted is compounding in an ever smaller way.

If you were near the top seats in the rose bowl, how long would it take you to drown, if a single drop of water near the bottom of the bowl were to double in quantity every minute?

Crash Course Chapter 4 | Chris Martenson

Too much to take in? Then perhaps the solution for YOU, really IS, simply "Waahhhh, I want a simple solution". Ok, your right, it just gouging. But if you're NOT simple, I hope you can take the time to listen to all 18 segments on this guy's web page(s). Because one really has to be 'simple' ... to forever focus on the 'emergency' right in front of them ... never realizing these are just tiny warning signs ... like when all the water in the bay runs out to sea. "Wahhh, my boat is stuck on dry ground" ... or, "oh my God, a tidal wave is coming!". You choose.