GM bailout rant

[DanCar]

Are we going to call Bush a socialist if he bails out GM?

Are we going to start throwing billions at failing auto suppliers next?

[zenMachine]

Originally Posted by DanCar

Are we going to call Bush a socialist if he bails out GM?

Bush is not bailing out GM. All he'll do is stick his finger into the dike and wait for Obama to come to the rescue.

[hill]

Originally Posted by DanCar

Some good financial history on GM:
Bloomberg.com: Special Report

...
Since 2005, GM has lost a cumulative $72.4 billion, had its debt downgraded to junk, watched its share of U.S. auto sales shrink by almost 1 million vehicles and shed 90 percent of its market value. It introduced gas-guzzling vehicles as fuel prices rose, failed to slim down its product offerings and dealer networks quickly enough and wasn’t able to cap its labor costs in time to stem the bleeding. In September 2007, the company won the right to hire new workers at lower wages starting in 2010 -- too far down the road to avoid the consequences of a recession and a credit crunch that engulf it now. ...
...
And it dismissed calls for radical restructuring from former board member Jerome York and other critics.

York, 70, a former Chrysler Corp. finance chief, was advising Tracinda Corp. CEO Kirk Kerkorian, who had amassed a 9.9 percent stake in GM. He told analysts in January 2006 that the time had come for the automaker “to go into a crisis mode and act accordingly.” York calculated that GM was burning through cash at a rate of $24 million a day, which meant it had about 1,000 days before it ran out -- in October 2008.
GM ignored York’s advice to reduce its number of models, including getting rid of the Hummer and Saab brands, and to cut both management and labor costs in what he called an “equality of sacrifice.” He resigned nine months later, in October 2006, frustrated by the board’s unwillingness to take action. Only after York left did GM decide to sell Hummer. Now it’s talking about getting rid of Saab and Saturn, as well as Pontiac.
“Three years ago I thought GM had the time and financial resources to save itself,” York, now CEO of Harwinton Capital LLC, said in an interview. “Now I’m not so sure. Who’s responsible? Top management and the board of directors.”

What does GM board member York know? I think we should all buy into Malorns diatribe, that it's Toyota with the problem ... not GM. It's not guzzlers, and the fuel we pour trillions into via military action in the middle east. The real truth, he says is "well, Toyota has guzzlers too". Preach on. "Top Management" is the problem according to a board member? Not according to malorn. Preach on brother ... were listening. Maybe just one more, "go ahead, you'll see" and the converts will come rolling in.

[malorn]

Originally Posted by hill

What does GM board member York know? I think we should all buy into Malorns diatribe, that it's Toyota with the problem ... not GM. It's not guzzlers, and the fuel we pour trillions into via military action in the middle east. The real truth, he says is "well, Toyota has guzzlers too". Preach on. "Top Management" is the problem according to a board member? Not according to malorn. Preach on brother ... were listening. Maybe just one more, "go ahead, you'll see" and the converts will come rolling in.

I have never said that Gm management over the years is in no way responsible for a portion of GM's present financial state. The financial problems are from the US operations and are mainly from shrinking market share and huge fixed costs. Many of the problems are systematic, notice GM, Ford and Chrysler have been shrinking and have serious cash problems. Ford did have the foresight to mortgage EVERYTHING about 1.5 years ago, other wise they would have had huge cash problems before now.

Stop with the guzzlers, you know that if they could have Toyota would have sold every suv and pickup that GM and ford did over the last decade, they just didn't have the product.

Maybe if you get your way and detroit goes down and then the country goes down and Disney taps you on your shoulder, relieves you of your post and tells you your pension is gone and you will no longer have health insurance you will get it.

[DanCar]

Here is a money making opportunity for your lawyer friend:

The TARP law clearly states for financial institutions. GM is clearly not a financial institution. I hope someone sues the executive branch.
TARP: Now A Slush Fund for Detroit? The Foundry

[hill]

Originally Posted by malorn

I have never said that Gm management over the years is in no way responsible for a portion of GM's present financial state. The financial problems are from the US operations and are mainly from shrinking market share and huge fixed costs. Many of the problems are systematic, notice GM, Ford and Chrysler have been shrinking and have serious cash problems. Ford did have the foresight to mortgage EVERYTHING about 1.5 years ago, other wise they would have had huge cash problems before now.

GM's board member York disagrees w/ you. He doesn't say US operations ~ he doesn't say shrinking market share ~ he doesn't say huge fixed costs ~ he doesn't say, 'well... Ford would be just as bad as us if..." . . . rather he mans up and says, "it was us, the board". He's the first to admit they all deserved to be fired ... and he followed up by quitting, when he couldn't get the others to grow brains (like selling Hummer back when there was still a chance, etc). Change, as the president elect says ... it's what it's all about. All of the "end of the U.S." scare tactics in the world can't stop the GM board from their failures. That shows how little they care about you & I.

Originally Posted by DanCar

Here is a money making opportunity for your lawyer friend:

The TARP law clearly states for financial institutions. GM is clearly not a financial institution. I hope someone sues the executive branch.
TARP: Now A Slush Fund for Detroit? The Foundry

Misuse of Fed funds specifically earmarked for other purposes automatically has standing with the Fed Supreme Court. Bush won't be the 1st prez to rightly get slapped down by the supremes.

[jayman]

I just returned from my business trip and - after a nice nap - am feeling reasonably wide awake. I honestly thought the mood in the Asian countries was bad not quite a month ago, it's now MUCH WORSE. Almost End Of Days stuff here

I really could care less how much funny money is thrown at the car makers, the banks, whatever, we are sliding into a very deep and long recession - we've only just begun to slide down, much worse is to come. Possibly even the D word

I've read what former GM Board member York said. He is right on the money, or lack of it, depending on your perspective. Wouldn't matter if we throw ten billion, one hundred billion, or even a trillion taxpayer dollars at the auto industry, they are likely to implode anyway

Consider for a long time, domestic car makers made their money on Planned Obsolescence. Folks bought new cars ever three years. Now with a crippling global recession, folks will have to keep their cars going as long as possible.

GM is now pissing and moaning about their decline in sales. I wouldn't be surprised if their sales sink to less than half of what they were last year. Thousands of workers will be let go, bailout or no bailout. GM and others will have no choice but to enter Chapter 11 reorganization, to ditch as many union jobs as possible. Hopefully, they'll ditch their broken management at the same time, minus the gold plated severance

What really worries me about the proposed auto bailout is that the money will be used as "wisely" as it was for the banking and mortgage sector. What a bunch of crooks! Speaking of crooks, good ole Bernard Madoff made a good buck for himself

We have very effectively mortgaged our future away with this crap. I would not be surprised if all of us end up with indentured servitude to another country, eg China.

[jayman]

Originally Posted by malorn

our main problem is that we have let foreign companies/countries loot this country.

Bulls***

We let our own corrupt, criminally incompetent CEO's, politicians, and let's not forget "watchdogs" rape us blind

Like many former "empires" we simply pissed it away through our own greed and decadence. We've become fat, lazy, and simple

[jayman]

Originally Posted by malorn

Jayman, to me software is a tangible object which is built somehwere by someone.

So I write a few lines of code to improve process efficiency 20% for a water district, or a refinery. Is that code fungible to, say, the airline industry? How about GM?

Originally Posted by malorn

How many scientific or engineering jobs would there be without manufacturing, whether yo uare talking about steel and cars or computer software?

If you depend on planned obsolescence for three year product cycles, you need engineers to tinker and retool production. If you're involved in chemical, electrical, or other egghead research and development like I am, there is little correlation

I'll use the example of NORA again. NORA is Non Obvious Relationship Awareness, widely credited to Jeff Jonas, who developed it in the early 80's. NORA was so far ahead of its time, it only saw critically important use by the Department of Homeland Security in the last several years

When I was still in the Army, and even more recently, I was involved in MURI and ARPA projects that were light years beyond anything commercially viable or even understandable by most civilians. Yes, the most obvious application is intelligence gathering, but similar protocols can be used to dramatically improve our energy efficiency, or production efficiency

I can understand it's hard to wrap your head around new paradigms, unless you have had specific training. Keep in mind what we now consider to be "new" paradigms were actually theorized decades ago. It took that long for the hardware to catch up, and for society to slowly accept the new paradigms

Every major paradigm shift creates turmoil for a certain proportion of society. You can't have 100% of the people "win" all the time, there have to be losers too. That sounds cruel and cold, but in my career I've learned it to be the truth

[jayman]

Originally Posted by malorn

the US has exported more than $6,000,000,000,000 since 1985 and millions of corresponding jobs. Those are the facts.

How much of that was manufacturing, how much of it was brain drain, how much of that was buying cheap terrorist oil?

When a large corporation shoves a stake through the back of domestic workers, opens up a plant in BFE, at a fraction of the wage and benefit cost, I find it highly ironic and hypocritical when that same company suddenly whines about the lack of Patriotism.