Noisemaker nonsense again

[The Electric Me]

Originally Posted by donee

Hi Electric...,

But all these vehicles have tires. And tires ARE the noisemakers, already on the cars. Your falling for the arguement that the Prius is silent. Which of course it most certainly is not. It has all sorts of burps, and beeps, and chirps besides the tire noise. Ever been behind a Prius backing up when the brakes are hit? Pretty loud those rear brake shoes being operated.

There is no difference in noise from an approaching Accord, to an aproaching Prius. Go out on the street and listen carefully. And the NTSHA data bears out this anectdotal observation - the Prius is just not killing people at any kind of strangely high rate. And indeed its not killing blind people at all, to date.

This is not defensiveness - its reality.

As far as backup beepers, I got no problem with that. Indeed, a retrofit mandate on ALL SUV's and Pickups of reversing beepers and rear view cameras is supported by the NTSHA data - and I would favor that, too.

But I do think there is a schizophrenic reaction to this issue from Prius owners. Toyota themselves made an Ad inwhich a Prius Silently pulls in behind a ranting terrorist and rescues a hostage. Promoting what? Prius's hostage rescuing capabilities? No, Promoting the silent operation. Most of us have watched the clip from "Weeds" inwhich The Prius is touted as being good for "sneaking up on people"....

Plus as I said, the new EV mode available in the 2010 has been mentioned as being "perfect" for pulling out in the morning or arriving late at night and NOT waking up your neighbors. Why because it's quieter than a coventional car.

So I would say, Prius Owners you can't have it both ways. You can't enjoy the silent (or quieter) operation of The Prius, but then when someone points out a potential drawback of that same quieter operation suddenly start making excuses why it ISN'T quieter...or The World is too loud or deaf people couldn't hear the warning anyway...that's just being defensive.

Sure, the tires make noise, sure the brakes make noise. I don't think anyone is contending that The Prius is magically able to operate in a sound Vacuum. I'd also agree that in comparison to a lot of new or newer ICE cars the difference in noise generated at idle or slow speeds is pretty close to being equal. But that's not really the point or it isn't the point to those promoting a "Noisemaker".

Plus, I don't quite understand your logic in supporting a noisemaker in the form of a audible reverse beep for not only The Prius but all SUV's and Pick-ups, but not at least being able to consider that a noisemaker might be helpful in any other case. So poor reverse visibility and quieter operation deserves an auditory warning but only if the vehicle is moving in reverse?

Please understand, for the reasons I've already stated I'm against the attachment of a noisemaker to The Prius. BUT I can at least comprehend why some would make the judgement that they could be helpful. Plus I do think Prius owners are schizophrenic on this issue and tend to be too defensive.

[wfolta]

Originally Posted by The Electric Me

But I do think there is a schizophrenic reaction to this issue from Prius owners. Toyota themselves made an Ad ....

You explain things right here: there are at least two groups of people involved here, and it's totally reasonable for different groups to react differently to the same thing. That's not schizophrenia.

EDIT: Not to mention that many cars are sold with ads that showing the owner being deluged with women because they own the car. That doesn't mean that it's true.

So I would say, Prius Owners you can't have it both ways. You can't enjoy the silent (or quieter) operation of The Prius, but then when someone points out a potential drawback of that same quieter operation suddenly start making excuses why it ISN'T quieter...or The World is too loud or deaf people couldn't hear the warning anyway...that's just being defensive.

First, yes all new Prius owners are fascinated with EV mode. I did a little run in EV mode with my windows down so I could hear how quiet it was... Problem is that all the cars around me were equally quiet. Not close-to-equal, but equal: all you hear from a modern car that's not accelerating hard is road/tire and wind noise. Now that I'm listening, I've noticed that both as a Prius driver and as a pedestrian.

And as a pedestrian, we do routinely notice cars based simply on road/tire noise and wind noise. Perhaps we need noisemakers on cars that are too aerodynamic as well?

The ONLY time that I can think of that a Prius is truly stealthy is when it is warmed up, the battery is not low, and it is stopped at a light. A sight-impaired person could perhaps step out in front of it to cross the street and not know that a car was sitting there and ready to go when the light turned green.

I'd also agree that in comparison to a lot of new or newer ICE cars the difference in noise generated at idle or slow speeds is pretty close to being equal. But that's not really the point or it isn't the point to those promoting a "Noisemaker".

Actually, it is the point. Its not "close to being equal" under most conditions, it is "fully equal". When moving, all you hear from modern cars is road/tire/wind noise. When accelerating hard, you'll hear a non-hybrid, but if you accelerate hard, the Prius engine will come on, too.

Again, the only time that the Prius truly beats a non-hybrid is sitting at a stop light. And even then, in a city the noise from busses and other traffic will drown out an idling non-hybrid.

Plus, I don't quite understand your logic in supporting a noisemaker in the form of a audible reverse beep

Reverse suffers from low visibility and it is also rare. It's not something constantly going off every second that you are in the car. And there's absolutely no comparison between going-forward visibility and going-backward visibility. Not even close. Silly comparison, especially when you consider the terrible, terrible visibility from large vehicles in reverse.

And we haven't even gotten into the issue of noise pollution. How loud are these noisemakers going to be? And what cars will they go on? Only hybrids/electric? Or will we form a new government agency that ensures that all cars that are quieter than, say, a 1980 Ford Galaxy 500 have noisemakers that bring them up to this standard?

The bottom line is that in most cases, we've equipped the impaired person to sense what they need, not everyone else: closed-captioning, phone amplifiers, etc, etc. The noisemaker solution for cars is like insisting that all phones blast out there audio at ear-splitting levels and having the non-hearing-impaired simply hold the phone far from their ears.

[bwilson4web]

Originally Posted by The Electric Me

. . .
So I would say, Prius Owners you can't have it both ways. You can't enjoy the silent (or quieter) operation of The Prius, but then when someone points out a potential drawback of that same quieter operation suddenly start making excuses why it ISN'T quieter...or The World is too loud or deaf people couldn't hear the warning anyway...that's just being defensive.
. . .
Please understand, for the reasons I've already stated I'm against the attachment of a noisemaker to The Prius. BUT I can at least comprehend why some would make the judgement that they could be helpful. Plus I do think Prius owners are schizophrenic on this issue and tend to be too defensive.

My first concern was adding a noise generator makes a Prius just as lethal as today's cars that already kill 4,700 pedestrians. In contrast, radar, camera and infrared camera systems are coming out that not only avoid hitting the blind but also all pedestrians, the 4,700 who die each year. Legislation that addresses the 4,700 pedestrians saves everyone but the blind legislation, H.R. 734 and S. 841, do not.

What I have noticed is the topic sentence of the National Federation of the Blind addresses "mobility" and then drags in the pedestrian safety 'cover.' There is a mobility issue but it is not limited to hybrids. They already have a problem with ordinary traffic, especially at high traffic levels. But this legislation mandates the least effective solution, the one that already kills 5 blind pedestrians each year.

Now I'm not so 'politically correct' that I want everyone to think like me. Each must come to this issue with their own sense of values and what is important. However, these are my primary reasons followed by what the accident statistics already show ... the Prius is no more hazardous to pedestrians than ordinary vehicles.

Bob Wilson

[zenMachine]

Japan, the home of hybrid cars like the Toyota Prius that run near-silent in their electric battery mode, may introduce requirements to use noise-making devices to let pedestrians – and blind people in particular – know they are coming.

“We have received opinions from automobile users and vision-impaired people that they feel hybrid vehicles are dangerous,” the news agency Agence France-Presse quoted a Japanese transport ministry official as saying in a report on Friday.

The ministry had put together a panel of academics, advocates for sight-impaired people, consumers, police and representatives from the car industry to explore whether taking measures like installing noise-making devices would be necessary.

Japan Mulls Making Hybrid Cars Louder - Green Inc. Blog - NYTimes.com

[qbee42]

Originally Posted by The Electric Me

<snip>
So I would say, Prius Owners you can't have it both ways. You can't enjoy the silent (or quieter) operation of The Prius, but then when someone points out a potential drawback of that same quieter operation suddenly start making excuses why it ISN'T quieter...or The World is too loud or deaf people couldn't hear the warning anyway...that's just being defensive.
<snip>

Any well made luxury car is just as quite as the Prius. Modern car engines at idle make very little noise. Mostly you hear wind and tire noise, which is the same for both.

Tom

[bwilson4web]

Originally Posted by zenMachine

Japan, the home of hybrid cars like the Toyota Prius that run near-silent in their electric battery mode, may introduce requirements to use noise-making devices to let pedestrians – and blind people in particular – know they are coming.
. . .

It is a study and far from legislation or a change in regulations.

Bob Wilson

[zenMachine]

Originally Posted by bwilson4web

It is a study and far from legislation or a change in regulations.

The fact that they're even considering it is troubling...