So I figured out how to install my block heater

[Frank Hudon]

BXPT sorry. I'd have hoped that Jayman would have had acess to one but not so far. I wonder if your utilities company would be of some help if you approched them nicely. Or possibly the mechanical maintance dept at the hospital.

[storm petrol]

I installed my block heater yesterday. I want to thank everyone who has been contributing to this thread.

Evan's frustration with jacking the car up led me to get it up as high as possible to begin with (Stacked two wheels under the front-center jack point to prevent respiratory arrest if the car fell.) I had also intended to install it with the connection already made so bailed on that idea thanks to his comments.

Ken 1784's picture of the left side of the ICE was the icing on the cake! Wonderful to have that to help locate the proper orifice.

That core will get awful slippery if you really coat it with the grease as instructed. I recommend clipping the tip off the little 'tube' and inserting it into the hole as far as is possible without losing it (you have to pinch the end of the tube a bit to get it into the opening.) Then squeeze and role the tube as you take it out, depositing a large measure of the contents inside the cylinder. You can than put the rest on the end of the core and along the distal third or so. I practiced putting the core in first to avoid dropping it and getting grease all over. The biggest problem I had was getting the axis of the core parallel with the axis of the cylinder. Even though you can't see the actual opening, having plenty of light on the scene is very helpful also.

My impression is that the clip should be oriented at 3 o'clock (looking into the opening).

That cylinder heats up very, very quickly. This is another way of saying that there is a tremendous amount of waste heat that radiates out into the air space. It is radiating in the general vicinity of the pathway that leads to the converter, which is better than some other direction, I suppose. Still, this enormous inefficiency is not at all in sync with the energy ethic that this machine represents.

What about applying some sort of spray-on or adhesive insulation to that region of the block to prevent this loss?

I would actually appreciate it if someone with technical expertise could comment on this. A modification of this sort is going to create a permanent 'hot spot' under and around the insulation. This would be quite different from the general accumulation of grunge that occurs uniformly on an engine and gradually results in slowing heat loss. An insulated spot like this feels intuitively somewhat different from the temporary hot spot that happens when the block heater is used. I can imagine such a continuous hot spot might lead to warping or cracking under the stress of continuous operation of the engine.

Any comments?

And once again, thanks!

storm petrol

PS Drove the 500 miles to Syracuse and back last weekend to see our son's two art shows there. 57.3 mpg!!

[efusco]

Originally posted by hdrygas@Nov 1 2005, 10:49 PM
I have to differ.  The ScanGage suggest the temp is at 137 on power up dropping to between 110 and 120 after a few seconds after the power on.  It then rises to 156 (or so) with in 1-2 min.  Three hours get it to 137 on start.  If I had a few days off I could get up every hour and plot the temps with and without timer and compare them that would be a fair comparison to a watt hour meter.  Not soon I am out of here for a few days of CME in Portland.

[snapback]148968[/snapback]

It's interesting b/c this morning I saw 138 at start up into READY with EV Mode. Stayed there until I pulled down the driveway, in EV mode, to grab the paper...it dropped to about 135 by then.

I hit the EV button again and the temp dropped immediately to somewhere around the 110-113 range for very short time. Within 1/4 mile I was closing in on 140 degrees again.

I didn't get above 180 on the 8 mile round trip to drop off the kids despite the entire upper portion of the radiator being blocked off.

[jayman]

Originally posted by Frank Hudon@Nov 2 2005, 01:10 AM
BXPT sorry. I'd have hoped that Jayman would have had acess to one but not so far. I wonder if your utilities company would be of some help if you approched them nicely. Or possibly the mechanical maintance dept at the hospital.

[snapback]149000[/snapback]

Hi Frank:

I think what we really need is for me or another person with access to the proper equipment to hook up a recording power meter and run a test. For the best results the test should be run inside a garage (No windchill) and out in the open.

I do know that power meters exist that are simple plug-in affairs, but AFAIK they only record instant power useage, not recording. They certainly are not weather- tite or safe in damp areas.

At work I have access to Fluke and AEMC industrial power meters. These are sophisticated meters that will record per-phase of a 3-phase Delta or Wye system, phase angle, harmonics and interharmonics, etc.

They also have resolution down to 1 watt and are certified from the factory. If you have ever had to deal with Power Factor correction involving capacitor banks, I'm sure you'll appreciate a safe, reliable meter than can also record.

We just received a couple of Fluke 434 meters:
http://ca.fluke.com/caen/products/features...(FlukeProducts)

But unfortunately I have not had the chance to "borrow" them yet. The problem is, a good power meter like an AEMC 3945 or a Fluke 434 is always in the field being used as intended. I keep hoping I can snag one from the office soon to "borrow" over a weekend, but so far no luck. Sorry.

I rather doubt any individual would own such a meter, as they cost over $6,000 Canadian. Hell, to replace the amp-clamps (Set of 4) costs $1,000.

I suppose a simple amp-clamp could be used, as long as somebody didn't mind going out every hour or so and taking a reading. Since the heater is almost a pure resistive load it's easy to calculate power if you know RMS voltage and current.

It's a bit more of a PITA if you have to measure resistance. Though it has been my experience with the Prius block heater the resistance is far more dependant on the corrosion on the plug blades than anything else. Otherwise, the difference from cold to hot is about 1.2 ohms.

Hope this helps.

j

[jayman]

Originally posted by efusco@Nov 1 2005, 10:37 PM
Most of ya'll doing the EBH (Engine Block Heater--I'm getting lazy) have mentioned how you turn it on about 3 hours before your usual departure.  I think Frank measured cold temps then every hour until warm and found that 3 hours was the point where you got the most bang for your watts.

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That's a good question. A lot of research has been done in Canada by power utilities like Manitoba Hydro and the former Ontario Hydro (Whatever they call themselves this week).

It was found that for "most" MD and HD equipment, certainly for a regular car or pickup, a 3 hour plugin time produced the most benefits WRT power consummed, ease of starting, reduced equipment wear, and increased fuel economy.

Most standard frost-plug heaters are self-limiting and usually have a thermal overheat device that protects it from overheating. Note that once that thermal protection device functions, you have to throw away the frost plug heater.

I've never seen a frost plug heater actually bring a motor up to normal operating temp: they heat too small an area of the block, especially for a V8. I have known folks who replace the single frost plug heater on a V6 or V8 and put in two, one on each V of the block.

That actually works MUCH better, as the heating is more uniform and much more effective, especially below -30 C. Say the motor came with a single 600-800 watt frost plug heater. At -30 C or colder, it will make the difference between starting and not starting, but not much else.

Get two 400-500 watt frost plug heaters, put one in each bank of the V8, and you still have 800-1000 watts total. But both sides of the block are warmed and it works much better. And if one happens to conk, you're not screwed either, you still have partial heating.

If parked outside, especially colder than -25 C with a strong wind, you had BETTER leave it plugged in all the time. Even then, given the very small area actually heated by the frost plug heater, you will barely have enough heat to do more than ensure the motor starts.

Most circulation heaters are thermostatically controlled and work wonderfully. On HD motors, not only can they be set by timer but can also be set by temperature. Most HD diesel motors last longest if they can be started up already at 100 F or hotter.

A big advantage to a circulation heater is that it will uniformely heat not only the entire block, but also the heater core too. So as soon as you start it, you get very warm air out the heater.

Any more "modern" car/truck with electric or vacuum controlled heater core cannot use a circulation heater, as once the motor is off the heater valve is closed and you won't have coolant circulation.

As an option - a very difficult one though - one can plumb a circulation heater such that the cold end takes coolant from a block drain plug, and the hot outlet goes into an unused fitting in the head or intake manifold. Another option is to use the block drain plug as the cold source and a "Y" pipe to go into the heater core return line. You won't heat the heater core but will heat the block.

I have a Temro 1,000 watt circulation heater on my 1984 Ford F-150, which I keep parked in an old barn at my hobby farm. The barn isn't insulated but at least the wind, rain, snow, and frost are kept off it. Sometimes I leave it parked in my detached shop/garage.

My Temro heater turns on at 100 F and off at 120 F. I haven't tried it parked outside, but I do know that parked even in the old draft barn, 20 minutes of operation it will start to cycle. If parked in my detached shop/garage, which is usually unheated but well insulated, after 10 minutes the heater will cycle.

When I use the circulation heater I rarely have to pull out the choke knob. Just pump the gas a couple of times and the motor instantly starts. I really wish we could somehow plumb in a Temro 750 watt circulation heater into our Prius cars, that would take care of most of the cold winter heater complaints and MPG hit.

More information at:

http://www.zerostart.com/publications.asp

I haven't looked at the U.S. market pdf but the Canadian one is around 2.9 MB. The circulation heaters are on P.74 of the document. A very nice all-in-one HD system in on P.79.

[kenkneeb]

Originally posted by storm petrol@Nov 2 2005, 07:14 AM
I installed my block heater yesterday.  I want to thank everyone who has been contributing to this thread. 

Evan's frustration with jacking the car up led me to get it up as high as possible to begin with (Stacked two wheels under the front-center jack point to prevent respiratory arrest if the car fell.)  I had also intended to install it with the connection already made so bailed on that idea thanks to his comments. 

Ken 1784's picture of the left side of the ICE was the icing on the cake!  Wonderful to have that to help locate the proper orifice. 

That core will get awful slippery if you really coat it with the grease as instructed.  I recommend clipping the tip off the little 'tube' and inserting it into the hole as far as is possible without losing it (you have to pinch the end of the tube a bit to get it into the opening.)  Then squeeze and role the tube as you take it out, depositing a large measure of the contents inside the cylinder.  You can than put the rest on the end of the core and along the distal third or so.  I practiced putting the core in first to avoid dropping it and getting grease all over.  The biggest problem I had was getting the axis of the core parallel with the axis of the cylinder.  Even though you can't see the actual opening, having plenty of light on the scene is very helpful also.

My impression is that the clip should be oriented at 3 o'clock (looking into the opening). 

That cylinder heats up very, very quickly.  This is another way of saying that there is a tremendous amount of waste heat that radiates out into the air space.  It is radiating in the general vicinity of the pathway that leads to the converter, which is better than some other direction, I suppose.  Still, this enormous inefficiency is not at all in sync with the energy ethic that this machine represents.

What about applying some sort of spray-on or adhesive insulation to that region of the block to prevent this loss? 

I would actually appreciate it if someone with technical expertise could comment on this.  A modification of this sort is going to create a permanent 'hot spot' under and around the insulation. This would be quite different from the general accumulation of grunge that occurs uniformly on an engine and gradually results in slowing heat loss.  An insulated spot like this feels intuitively somewhat different from the temporary hot spot that happens when the block heater is used.  I can imagine such a continuous hot spot  might lead to warping or cracking under the stress of continuous operation of the engine.

Any comments?

And once again, thanks!

storm petrol

PS  Drove the 500 miles to Syracuse and back last weekend to see our son's two art shows there.  57.3 mpg!!

[snapback]149034[/snapback]

Thanks to Evan & Ken1784 for the Block Heater Pics!!!
I just found Ken1784's images just a page or two back. I'm still learning how to use this board.

Thanks again to all!!!

This board Rocks!

Ken

[Frank Hudon]

Originally posted by efusco@Nov 2 2005, 06:14 AM
It's interesting b/c this morning I saw 138 at start up into READY with EV Mode.  Stayed there until I pulled down the driveway, in EV mode, to grab the paper...it dropped to about 135 by then.

I hit the EV button again and the temp dropped immediately to somewhere around the 110-113 range for very short time.  Within 1/4 mile I was closing in on 140 degrees again.

I didn't get above 180 on the 8 mile round trip to drop off the kids despite the entire upper portion of the radiator being blocked off.

[snapback]149050[/snapback]

the drop to 110-13 sounds like that is when the circulation pump dumped the thermous into the ICE. Never made 180, time to cover more of the rad. Nice to be able to monitor the temp? You betcha!

[efusco]

Originally posted by kenkneeb@Nov 2 2005, 11:26 AM
Storm P

Can you provide the link to the above mentioned "Ken 1784's" picture(s) re block heater install?  Are they still on the site, post crash and all?

I searched and searched but could not find them.

Please advise.

Yea, but did you read this very thread? It's on page 4, post #79 I think.

[Frank Hudon]

Originally posted by kenkneeb@Nov 2 2005, 09:26 AM
Storm P

Can you provide the link to the above mentioned "Ken 1784's" picture(s) re block heater install?  Are they still on the site, post crash and all?

I searched and searched but could not find them.

Please advise.

Thanks, Ken

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the picture that he posted is #79 of this thread which is on page 4 small thumbnain that if you click on and then enlarge look in the lower right hand corner of the pix and he's circled the opening.

[Frank Hudon]

Evan quit that!