Tire Upgrade

[theorist]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vintagebob @ Jul 6 2006, 03:49 PM) [snapback]282173[/snapback]</div>

I've gone nearly 60K miles with my 2004 Prius and I'm on my 3rd set of tires.

Stock - These tires were just too slippery for me in most conditions and I was eager to swap them out.

TT - These solved my traction problem but they made for a harsh ride, cost me about 3-5MPG and they were not the original specification size. They also got a little noisy as they wore down. The MPG improved SLIGHTLY as they wore but they never got close to stock tires in this regard.

Ziex - These have been a good compromise. My MPG jumped back up and the handling was somewhere between the stock tires and the TTs. Noise is still an issue so they are not perfect and I'm not sure how long they will last but they seem like a good bargain.

I'm still waiting for the tire that combines LRR with some handling and a quiet ride...
[/b]

Thank you for sharing your experience. IMHYBRID who drives one Prius with HydroEdge tires and another with Falken Ziex ZE-512 tires also compares the Falken ZE512 favorably the Michelin. Here is his PM to me:

The Falken tires ride better, handling is better, they are quieter, they are not expensive, the fuel consumption is very similar as my wife and I usually fill at 500 miles at consumption of 9.3 gal to 10.1 gal. The hydroedges now have 23000 miles on them and they are wearing very slowly and will get about 70000 of wear out of them. The falkens only have 6000 miles on them so wear has not been determined. I will let you know. I like both tires but if the Falkens give me say 30000 miles of wear they will be the winners. In my opinion they will give you about 30000 and for h rated tires thats good. I hope this helps you out. Ps happy motoring to all !!
[/b]

We got 50,000 miles of wear on the Falken Ziex ZE-512's on our Civic, before we replaced the Civic with the Prius. The Falken's still had maybe 10,000 miles of wear left.

If you want equal or better LRR, better handling, and less noise than the Integrity, you might consider the Continental ContiProContact.

[gschoen]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nyprius @ Jun 29 2006, 08:23 AM) [snapback]278529[/snapback]</div>

\ In these areas, I tried to base my decision on as much expert information as I could get. One way to tell if wider tires and disk brakes are better is to look at high end cars. Mercedes, Porshe, BWM, Lexus and others all have wide tires and disk brakes. I assume that's because wide tires not only look sportier but hold the road much better.

Also, I know from driving big old V8 cars in the 1970's that disk brakes are WAY more effective at stopping a car than drum brakes. For example, in 1978, I was driving cross country in a 1970 Lemans Sport with a 350 V8. Going down a long winding mountain pass in Colorado, my drum brakes heated up and I couldn't stop the car! I had to skid sideways into a dirt parking area to avoid going off a cliff. Also, along with my Prius, I own a Yamaha FZ1 motorcycle that will do about 170 mph. It has duel disk brakes on the front and a single disk on the back. Why does it have disk instead of drum brakes? Because disk brakes are far better at stopping the bike. [/b]

Higher end cars have lots of features that aren't necessary for operation of the vehicle but the buyers expect them. Rear drum brakes work fine in the Prius. I haven't seen one person report an incident of brake fade because of the rear drums.

In 1978 if you had brake fade, you should have been using engine braking to go down a long winding mountain pass. If big tractor trailers can go down the mountain safely using engine braking, then I'm confident any car, even with drum brakes (proven reliable over time), can also safely transverse the road using engine braking as needed. The Prius has the same capability and those who've driven down steep mountain roads have reported here they had no problems braking.

[nyprius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gschoen @ Jul 7 2006, 11:51 AM) [snapback]282537[/snapback]</div>

Higher end cars have lots of features that aren't necessary for operation of the vehicle but the buyers expect them. Rear drum brakes work fine in the Prius. I haven't seen one person report an incident of brake fade because of the rear drums.

In 1978 if you had brake fade, you should have been using engine braking to go down a long winding mountain pass. If big tractor trailers can go down the mountain safely using engine braking, then I'm confident any car, even with drum brakes (proven reliable over time), can also safely transverse the road using engine braking as needed. The Prius has the same capability and those who've driven down steep mountain roads have reported here they had no problems braking.
[/b]

I had the car in low but that didn't slow it down much given the type of transmission it had (I think it was a 2 or 3 speed automatic). I was probably going too fast though and overheated the brakes. That shows a problem with drum brakes -- they can overheat.

I don't understand all this debate about drum vs disk brakes. It's obvious disk brakes are much better at stopping the car. That doesn't mean rear drum brakes aren't good enough for the Prius. Of course they are. The car wouldn't be on the road if the brakes didn't work well enough. Someone mentioned drum brakes were better because they're enclosed and less likely to get contaminated by oil or dirt. I've driven cars with disk brakes for many years and have never had a problem with rotors getting dirty or scored from dirt. Nor have I ever heard of anyone else having a problem. They use disk brakes on motorcross motorcycles that regularly immerse the whole front and rear disk brake assemblies in mud, then drive away with no problem. This is a proven technology.

Every high end car I'm aware of uses disk brakes in the back. Are you saying the designers of those cars are all mistaken? That the cars would perform better with rear drum brakes? That misguided car owners want disk brakes but they don't realize the car would perform better with rear drum brakes?

60% or more of stopping occurs at the front wheels. That's why they put disks in the front of the Prius. Are you saying the Prius would stop better if it had drum brakes in the front? Clearly not. If disk brakes are better in the front, then why are they worse in the back? They're not. Rear disk brakes probably are not needed in most conditions, if ever, on the Prius. Nevertheless, I would feel safer and more comfortable with rear disk brakes.

Having said that, I love my car. For me the type of rear brake is a very minor point (I started this post to discuss a much more important subject -- tires, important because we can easily do something about it). Even if I had the option to change to rear disk brakes, I probably wouldn't pay to do it, unless it was not that expensive. Rear drum brakes are good enough.

[GoodyearTireGuy]

I’ve read several threads about tires, and specifically concerning Goodyear Assurance with TripleTred and a concern about reduction in miles per gallon. As this quite well-written thread looks most generally at tire choice, as a Goodyear associate, I thought I’d share a few points that may be helpful.

Assurance TripleTred is a premium replacement tire. Its construction, tread pattern and multi-compound tread rubber deliver outstanding traction in any conditions. It also contributes to great treadwear; as those who bought them know, they come with an 80,000 mile treadlife limited warranty.

Construction of OEM tires is a little different from replacement tires. There is more silica in the compound, for example, to reduce rolling resistance and help the car manufacturers meet MPG goals. Generally speaking, an OE tire will have shorter tread life than a quality replacement tire, such as Assurance.

Lower rolling resistance (LRR) tires would likely increase gas mileage under comparable circumstances. But the gains made in MPG are traded for the loss of treadwear. Additionally, depending how the LRR tire is constructed, there could also be a trade-off in traction or performance.

As an aside, we developed Assurance (and other tires) after hearing what consumers wanted. “Better traction, confident handling, performance in all sorts of driving conditions” summarize the responses. At the time (2002/03) higher MPG wasn’t a priority. Keep in mind that the consumers drove – and Assurance was developed for – a wide variety of vehicles, some fuel-efficient, some not.

Many of the readers here probably know this information already (seems to be a smart group from the posts I’ve read), but I thought it could be helpful.

Also, you might be interested in knowing that performance tires are much more popular in Europe than in the US -- but Goodyear and our various brands have many excellent hi-perf tires for the US market that are quite well rated -- The Eagle F1 and Eagle ResponseEdge with Carbon Fiber Technology, and the Dunlop SportMaxx and SP Sport 9000 are big winners in many head-to-head tests.

[Tempus]

GoodyearGuy

Which Goodyear Tires ARE LRR?

That's the question everyone wants answered. Not 'why the TT isn't' and not an explanation of what the trade-offs are for Rolling Resistance.

Publish the Rolling Resistance of your tires and then let people decide based on that and the other factors you mention.

[bruceha_2000]

I went maybe 1/3rd of the way through my Prius' first winter before ditching the (not much) Integritys. They would slide coming to a stop in MINIMAL snow, on plowed roads. The traction control would kick in even with a light foot starting in MINIMAL snow or gravel. I'm not sure what "all season" means to tire manufacturers but for the Integrities, it ISN'T "All Seasons" in Vermont. There is a VERY wide range of "all season".

If possible, I wanted to stop the twice a year tire swap and STORAGE required with snow tires. I settled on the high end 195/60 TTs and am very happy with them. I would say that they are a tad noiser than the Integrities. MUCH MUCH better in snow. MUCH MUCH better in rain, and there is a noticable improvement in stability on interstate exchanges. While the body lean doesn't change, the improved tire grip is noticable. I can hold a higher speed on the exchanges I use regularly without feeling like I'm at the edge.

I may have lost a little MPG but I can't say for sure. I thought I might have so I put the Integrities back on in May of 2005. The TTs went back on in November for winter and are still there. Nose to tail comparison suggests little if any difference. Two weeks ago my wife and I came back from dropping the kids at camp - 150 miles, all interstate. We came from different directions to drop them so we had both the 2004 with 21K miles and TTs and the 2006 with < 2K miles and Integrities. The final 30 "five minute bars" were pretty similar. Since neither of us reset our computer MPG (what and screw up the spreadsheet!?!?) I can't give an exact MPG comparison. Riding in her car, I would say she might get a bit better 'glide' distance but that is to be expected since her tires aren't as 'grippy'. I'll let her decide if she wants dedicated snow tires or high end all seasons come winter. One thingis certain, the Barcelona Red will NOT be spending the winter on the Integrities.

[vintagebob]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nyprius @ Jul 6 2006, 05:02 PM) [snapback]282231[/snapback]</div>

The TT's have an 80,000 mile warrenty. How could you have replaced them and the OEM's in 60,000 miles? Did you take the TTs off when they had lots of tread left on them? For me the TT's are quieter than the OEM's (I'm driving them at 38/36 over the summer). This is consistent with Consumer Reports which rated them above average on comfort and excellent on noise. They also rated the TT as being the best all season tire, which is consistent with my experience in that they handle great. I'm also getting the same or slightly better mileage with them. Many others on PC who put TT's on said they got about the same mileage. Re the size, as noted above, the car handles better with a 195 tire.
[/b]

I replaced the OEMs and the TTs early. The OEMs scared me, especially in the rain, and the MPG hit with the TTs, along with the harsh ride, started to bug me after awhile. I have the same problem with golf clubs, I'm always seraching for the perfect set.

[bad monkey]

I have a question for everyone like me that lives where it hasn't snowed since the Great Depression and therefore don't need All-Season TIres...

Are you using "Summer Tires" and if so how is the treadwear, MPG, and wet traction?

It scares me that most of what I'm finding have no treadwear warranty and are only Ultra High Performance type (not that I mind that part).

[theorist]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bad monkey @ Jul 13 2006, 12:30 PM) [snapback]285678[/snapback]</div>

I have a question for everyone like me that lives where it hasn't snowed since the Great Depression and therefore don't need All-Season TIres...

Are you using "Summer Tires" and if so how is the treadwear, MPG, and wet traction?

It scares me that most of what I'm finding have no treadwear warranty and are only Ultra High Performance type (not that I mind that part).
[/b]

I always bought summer tires when I lived in Arizona and California, but I didn't have a Prius then. I still usually choose the tires for family members in Phoenix.

If I were out there now, I'd choose the Sumitomo HTR 200 for the Prius. It's well rated at TireRack, inexpensive, and has long treadwear for a summer high performance tire. The unusually Low Rolling Resistance is likely to increase your MPG by 1-3 mpg over other summer tires. This could save you another $60 to $200 in fuel costs over the life of the tires, not to mention reduced emissions, easier EV mode, and longer glides . The maximum pressure is 51 psi, giving you more freedom in choosing your tire pressure.

The Bridgeston Potenza RE-960 is a M+S tire that offers outstanding performance aside from lousy snow traction. We've used the RE-950, the Yokohama AVS ES100, the Kumho KH11, and the BFG G-force Sport with good performance, lousy mpg, on other vehicles. I miss driving on summer tires.

[nyprius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vintagebob @ Jul 13 2006, 09:47 AM) [snapback]285588[/snapback]</div>

I replaced the OEMs and the TTs early. The OEMs scared me, especially in the rain, and the MPG hit with the TTs, along with the harsh ride, started to bug me after awhile. I have the same problem with golf clubs, I'm always seraching for the perfect set.
[/b]

I lowered the air pressure in the TTs from 42/40 to 38/36. It seemed to make a big difference in comfort and shock absorbsion going over bumps, through potholes, etc. Even with the OEM's, I felt the Prius didn't take bumps that well. It seemed to make more noise and have more jarring than other cars. But that might have been because I had the OEMs at 42/40. Most Bridgestones have way harder sidewalls than the TTs. I suspect they'd ride even harsher.

Consumer reports rated the TT as being better on overall comfort and impact than most other tires, including the ComforTred. Tirerack rated the TT as having greater ride comfort than all other tires in its peer group, except the CT, which was slightly higher. Unless you have two Prius's or are switching tires on and off the car, it's hard to make an objective comparison between new tires and older worn out tires (which are presumably softer), in part because you have to go on memory of the older tires. Memories can be deceiving. I suspect the harder ride reported by some on the TT might have more to do with the car than with the tire.