Prius as a power source?

MrK · 08-03-2006, 10:29 AM

Based on all the fine information provided to me, it looks like these are my short-range and long-range plans. Note that I don't intend to drive around with all this connected; I'm simply implementing connections that will work for the next major power failure, which may be years away.

In the short-term: I intend to wire around the prius mini-battery by disconnecting it, and in its stead, connecting to a standard or a deep cycle battery off of which I'll have my "too large" inverter connected. This battery will provide the surge capacity for startups, but I'll intend to keep the running capacity to 1,000 watts or less. And I'll put a fuse or circuit breaker in the charging line between prius and standard battery. Don't want to blow the 100 or 150 amp fuse, whichever it is. (I guess I should look it up.)

Long range plan: I like Richard Factor's PriUPS project and research. I had never considered doing anything like that until I read his material. I've come across an APC 3000vA/2,250 watt UPS that was being scrapped (case damage, bad batteries, but still functional), so I've acquired the key piece of equipment to produce 2,250 watts. Surge capacity is supposed to be significant, too, but I haven't located any numbers. I'm trying to locate the balance of materials/equipment, with the ultimate goal of duplicating Mr. Factor's work, but I'm not in a rush to complete this. (Anybody know where I guy near St. Louis can find switching transformers to reduce 230 volt DC to 48 volt DC??)

The main advantage to the PriUPS power production appears to be the doubling (or more) of usable wattage and the fact that the UPS-type inverter generates a cleaner (that is, purer) sine wave in comparison to the Vector inverter (modified sine wave). As I understand it, the pure sine wave is much easier on the refrigerator and deep freeze motors.

How about this for a wild idea? During a power outage, I could use BOTH systems at the same time, so long as I keep the total draw of power below the regenerative threshold of the High Voltage battery. Again referring to Richard Factor's research, at a draw level of 4-5kW, the Prius engine would probably run full-time to keep the HV battery charged. But it's quiet, and the fuel consumption would likely be less than a free-standing generator of equal wattage. And power is only drawn from the system as needed, as opposed to a generator that runs whether the refrigerator is on or off. (I realize a generator doesn't run as hard during "off" cycles, but it's still running and consuming fuel.)

Have I gone off the deep end?

crichman · 08-03-2006, 10:51 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrK @ Aug 3 2006, 10:29 AM) [snapback]296929[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

Have I gone off the deep end?
[/b]

Maybe. Welcome to the pool.

I've also used Richard's approach and I'm mid-way through the project. You may want to contact him directly for more information about the switching power supplies he used to convert Prius traction battery voltages to the 96 or so volts required by sine-wave UPS systems like the HP/Compaq R3000 XR.

In my case I'm still expermenting with mods to make sure that enough juice is available to the UPS to meet the surge demand from my fridge compressor. More info when I'm happy with the solution, but for now I can verify that I do get sine-wave power from the UPS via the Prius -- well more than you can extract from the low-voltage circuit.

Charlie

crichman · 08-05-2006, 11:53 PM

Update: It works!

I followed the approach suggested by Richard Factor. A version of his "portable Large System A" from www.priups.com is now installed in my basement and cabled to a Prius when needed. It runs my fridge and my furnace fan successfully using clean sine-wave power, so my goals have been met.

My implementation differs from his slightly. Mine's in the house, not in the car. The socket in the Prius has a fuse (rated for DC and for the right voltage.) The modified switching supplies themselves have been wired to DC-rated fuses as well. I used a cheap mechanical transfer panel instead of relying on the UPS load-switching circuitry. And I found I needed to add a couple of big capacitors to buffer the switching supply outputs to meet peak demand when the fridge compressor kicks in.

Hats off to Richard, who was extremely helpful.

Charlie

hobbit · 08-06-2006, 01:17 AM

Of course the more conversion steps you put inline, the less
efficient the whole rig is. For possibly the ultimate in klunkiness,
see http://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/tds-priups/
The folks fortunate enough to have directly 200V-compatible systems
are doing it the right way.
.
_H*

M. Oiseau · 04-19-2007, 11:58 AM

Dr. Fusco and I were asking about inverter installations the other day and since then I've been nearly obsessed with the idea.

I've read references to a 150A inline fuse for the 12V DC-DC line to the Prius 12V battery. This 150A reference was then corrected to 100A with cautions not to risk blowing this "system" fuse due to difficulty and resulting high cost of replacement, recommending 60-80A positive terminal inline ANL type fuses.

I was just poking around the 12V battery area and noticed a 120A fuse on the positive terminal for a line out that appears to be for all the car's 12V components. Is this consistent with the 100A system fuse because the little 12V battery provides current draw buffer over 100A?

Does this mean a 100A fuse off the battery to an inverter, say 1250W or so, would be just as "safe" to the Prius system as the 60-80A fuses, especially if I drop a 300A peak draw or higher deep cycle battery in parallel between the Prius battery and inverter?

Am I on the right track? I really don't want to zap my car.

MegansPrius · 04-19-2007, 01:20 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(M. Oiseau @ Apr 19 2007, 10:58 AM) [snapback]426034[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

Dr. Fusco and I were asking about inverter installations the other day and since then I've been nearly obsessed with the idea.

I've read references to a 150A inline fuse for the 12V DC-DC line to the Prius 12V battery. This 150A reference was then corrected to 100A with cautions not to risk blowing this "system" fuse due to difficulty and resulting high cost of replacement, recommending 60-80A positive terminal inline ANL type fuses.

I was just poking around the 12V battery area and noticed a 120A fuse on the positive terminal for a line out that appears to be for all the car's 12V components. Is this consistent with the 100A system fuse because the little 12V battery provides current draw buffer over 100A?

Does this mean a 100A fuse off the battery to an inverter, say 1250W or so, would be just as "safe" to the Prius system as the 60-80A fuses, especially if I drop a 300A peak draw or higher deep cycle battery in parallel between the Prius battery and inverter?

Am I on the right track? I really don't want to zap my car.
[/b]

I don't have any answers myself, but there's some good inverter discussion in this thread:
My Prius is Powering my House
http://priuschat.com/index.php?s=&show...st&p=363152

MrK · 04-19-2007, 02:45 PM

Does this mean a 100A fuse off the battery to an inverter, say 1250W or so, would be just as "safe" to the Prius system as the 60-80A fuses, especially if I drop a 300A peak draw or higher deep cycle battery in parallel between the Prius battery and inverter?

Am I on the right track? I really don't want to zap my car.
[/quote]

I believe some of the research that was conducted in the desert with a 1,000 watt inverter indicates that, as the total amperage draw approaches 70 amps (x 113.8 volts = 1,000 watts), the Prius will lower the voltage output so that 1,000 watts seems to be an internal limitation of the 12-volt system. While I haven't tested that theory, my own experience last winter seems to bare this out. I was running a 1,000 watt space heater, and I'd check the deep cycle's state of charge periodically. It was oftentimes in the 11.4 volt range. The next day I wired a gas furnace into the system (abandoning the space heater). I was able to run the furnace using less electricity, and this heated a whole level of my home, and the battery SOC improved.

My own installation consists of a 1,500/3,000 watt surge inverter, a 12-volt deep cycle battery, and #4 wire cables. I installed the cables, one to the positive terminal of the battery, and the other to a ground, but not the same location as the batty's ground. (I used the bracket beside the Prius battery.) In the event of a power outage, I connect these cables to the deep cycle battery, and I wire the inverter to the second set of battery terminals on the deep cycle battery. I then run a heavy extension cord into the house. I trust that the deep cycle battery will provide surge capacity, but I haven't conducted any testing. I also need to fuse the circuit before the deep cycle, but haven't yet.

I, too, am pursing the ability to use the HV battery. I've recently acquired a MGE UPS (8,000 watts), but I'm having trouble getting it to work at all. I think I need to know it's good before I connect it to the Prius, ala Richard Factor.

M. Oiseau · 04-19-2007, 04:17 PM

MrK and Megan, thank you for the info.

bwilson4web · 04-19-2007, 07:54 PM

Hi,

Here is another approach:

http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/priups.html

Bob Wilson

Ethereal · 05-14-2007, 08:30 PM

Another PriUPS goes live!

04-19-2007, 11:58 AM	#15
M. Oiseau 6sigma this Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 260 My Car: 2007 Prius Model: Package: #6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 1	Dr. Fusco and I were asking about inverter installations the other day and since then I've been nearly obsessed with the idea. I've read references to a 150A inline fuse for the 12V DC-DC line to the Prius 12V battery. This 150A reference was then corrected to 100A with cautions not to risk blowing this "system" fuse due to difficulty and resulting high cost of replacement, recommending 60-80A positive terminal inline ANL type fuses. I was just poking around the 12V battery area and noticed a 120A fuse on the positive terminal for a line out that appears to be for all the car's 12V components. Is this consistent with the 100A system fuse because the little 12V battery provides current draw buffer over 100A? Does this mean a 100A fuse off the battery to an inverter, say 1250W or so, would be just as "safe" to the Prius system as the 60-80A fuses, especially if I drop a 300A peak draw or higher deep cycle battery in parallel between the Prius battery and inverter? Am I on the right track? I really don't want to zap my car. __________________ - '07 Magnetic Gray Pkg 6 - '09 Magnetic Gray Touring Pkg 6

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08-03-2006, 10:29 AM	#11
MrK Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 30 My Car: Model: Package: Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	Based on all the fine information provided to me, it looks like these are my short-range and long-range plans. Note that I don't intend to drive around with all this connected; I'm simply implementing connections that will work for the next major power failure, which may be years away. In the short-term: I intend to wire around the prius mini-battery by disconnecting it, and in its stead, connecting to a standard or a deep cycle battery off of which I'll have my "too large" inverter connected. This battery will provide the surge capacity for startups, but I'll intend to keep the running capacity to 1,000 watts or less. And I'll put a fuse or circuit breaker in the charging line between prius and standard battery. Don't want to blow the 100 or 150 amp fuse, whichever it is. (I guess I should look it up.) Long range plan: I like Richard Factor's PriUPS project and research. I had never considered doing anything like that until I read his material. I've come across an APC 3000vA/2,250 watt UPS that was being scrapped (case damage, bad batteries, but still functional), so I've acquired the key piece of equipment to produce 2,250 watts. Surge capacity is supposed to be significant, too, but I haven't located any numbers. I'm trying to locate the balance of materials/equipment, with the ultimate goal of duplicating Mr. Factor's work, but I'm not in a rush to complete this. (Anybody know where I guy near St. Louis can find switching transformers to reduce 230 volt DC to 48 volt DC??) The main advantage to the PriUPS power production appears to be the doubling (or more) of usable wattage and the fact that the UPS-type inverter generates a cleaner (that is, purer) sine wave in comparison to the Vector inverter (modified sine wave). As I understand it, the pure sine wave is much easier on the refrigerator and deep freeze motors. How about this for a wild idea? During a power outage, I could use BOTH systems at the same time, so long as I keep the total draw of power below the regenerative threshold of the High Voltage battery. Again referring to Richard Factor's research, at a draw level of 4-5kW, the Prius engine would probably run full-time to keep the HV battery charged. But it's quiet, and the fuel consumption would likely be less than a free-standing generator of equal wattage. And power is only drawn from the system as needed, as opposed to a generator that runs whether the refrigerator is on or off. (I realize a generator doesn't run as hard during "off" cycles, but it's still running and consuming fuel.) Have I gone off the deep end?

08-05-2006, 11:53 PM	#13
crichman Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 32 My Car: Model: Package: Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	Update: It works! I followed the approach suggested by Richard Factor. A version of his "portable Large System A" from www.priups.com is now installed in my basement and cabled to a Prius when needed. It runs my fridge and my furnace fan successfully using clean sine-wave power, so my goals have been met. My implementation differs from his slightly. Mine's in the house, not in the car. The socket in the Prius has a fuse (rated for DC and for the right voltage.) The modified switching supplies themselves have been wired to DC-rated fuses as well. I used a cheap mechanical transfer panel instead of relying on the UPS load-switching circuitry. And I found I needed to add a couple of big capacitors to buffer the switching supply outputs to meet peak demand when the fridge compressor kicks in. Hats off to Richard, who was extremely helpful. Charlie

08-06-2006, 01:17 AM	#14
hobbit Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Bahstahn Posts: 3,630 My Car: Model: Package: Thanks: 0 Thanked 216 Times in 118 Posts Friends: 0	Of course the more conversion steps you put inline, the less efficient the whole rig is. For possibly the ultimate in klunkiness, see http://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/tds-priups/ The folks fortunate enough to have directly 200V-compatible systems are doing it the right way. . _H*

04-19-2007, 02:45 PM	#17
MrK Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 30 My Car: Model: Package: Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	Does this mean a 100A fuse off the battery to an inverter, say 1250W or so, would be just as "safe" to the Prius system as the 60-80A fuses, especially if I drop a 300A peak draw or higher deep cycle battery in parallel between the Prius battery and inverter? Am I on the right track? I really don't want to zap my car. [/quote] I believe some of the research that was conducted in the desert with a 1,000 watt inverter indicates that, as the total amperage draw approaches 70 amps (x 113.8 volts = 1,000 watts), the Prius will lower the voltage output so that 1,000 watts seems to be an internal limitation of the 12-volt system. While I haven't tested that theory, my own experience last winter seems to bare this out. I was running a 1,000 watt space heater, and I'd check the deep cycle's state of charge periodically. It was oftentimes in the 11.4 volt range. The next day I wired a gas furnace into the system (abandoning the space heater). I was able to run the furnace using less electricity, and this heated a whole level of my home, and the battery SOC improved. My own installation consists of a 1,500/3,000 watt surge inverter, a 12-volt deep cycle battery, and #4 wire cables. I installed the cables, one to the positive terminal of the battery, and the other to a ground, but not the same location as the batty's ground. (I used the bracket beside the Prius battery.) In the event of a power outage, I connect these cables to the deep cycle battery, and I wire the inverter to the second set of battery terminals on the deep cycle battery. I then run a heavy extension cord into the house. I trust that the deep cycle battery will provide surge capacity, but I haven't conducted any testing. I also need to fuse the circuit before the deep cycle, but haven't yet. I, too, am pursing the ability to use the HV battery. I've recently acquired a MGE UPS (8,000 watts), but I'm having trouble getting it to work at all. I think I need to know it's good before I connect it to the Prius, ala Richard Factor.

04-19-2007, 04:17 PM	#18
M. Oiseau 6sigma this Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 260 My Car: 2007 Prius Model: Package: #6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 1	MrK and Megan, thank you for the info.

04-19-2007, 07:54 PM	#19
bwilson4web 03 and 10 Prius Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Huntsville AL with 2003 Prius Posts: 3,884 My Car: 2010 Prius Model: III Package: #1 Thanks: 148 Thanked 369 Times in 205 Posts Friends: 20	Hi, Here is another approach: http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/priups.html Bob Wilson

05-14-2007, 08:30 PM	#20
Ethereal Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 113 My Car: 2008 Prius Model: Package: #2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	Another PriUPS goes live!